Off Day Notes
September 23, 2010 at 1:25 pm by Capitol Avenue Club under Atlanta Braves
I think it’s about time to try something else in the lead off spot. Omar Infante simply doesn’t get on base enough to warrant hitting in the top-half of the order, much less the lead off spot. As of right now, Infante has 26 walks in 464 PA’s. Jeff Francoeur, one of the most impatient, hack-tastic, and several other adjectives hitters in the game, has 29 walks in 471 PA’s. Infante’s season .367 on base average (falling fast, BTW) is entirely a product of his .330 batting average, which is entirely a product of his .368 BABIP, which isn’t sustainable in the least bit. I don’t have a wonderful solution, but perhaps trying McLouth there again would be better.
…………
Speaking of former lead off hitters, this is the type of news that makes me want to throw the chair I’m sitting on through a window.
Martin Prado is playing with a sore groin, but said he’d use neither it nor the pinkie finger he broke on July 30 as an excuse for his recent offensive struggles.
That’s cute, isn’t it. A good ‘ole fashioned appeal to the dumb portion of our fan base, the portion that would rather see the player play through pain and act <insert gritty adjective here> about it than the team win games.
The Braves third baseman and No. 3 hitter was batting .247 with no homers, 11 RBIs and a .284 on-base percentage in his past 23 games before Wednesday, and was 5-for-31 (.161) with one extra-base hit and one RBI in his past eight games.
“I’ve pushed through this before,” said Prado, who has played through previous groin injuries. “I don’t have any excuses. I don’t want to rest. I don’t have that in my mind right now.”
Why, on earth, is this Prado’s decision? Baseball players–and I hope you’re sitting down for this–aren’t very smart. They’d rather jeopardize their own career and the fate of their team by playing through injuries than do the smart, responsible thing and take a seat when they’re not fit to play. Can’t do that, can’t be reasonable and logical. Because if you do that, everyone will think you’re nothing but a big pussy, right?
Anyway, that’s not the issue. I hate the fact that baseball players won’t admit they’re injured, but it is a fact and it’s something the clubs just have to deal with. So why, if they’re completely unwilling to be honest and responsible about their injuries, is the decision whether to sit or play that of the player? Why? WHY? WHY?
The answer is somebody is fucking up. Somebody, and I don’t know exactly who, should have the authority to say, “you can’t play today”, and instead is ceding the authority to the players. That’s unacceptable. That’s downright idiotic. That runs completely contrary to any reasonable and logical discourse.
You see, no matter how good the player is, if he’s playing injured he’s hurting the team. Playing injured leads to two things: poor play and more injuries. The most productive thing a player can do when he’s injured is take a seat. By letting the replacement play (who is going to be better than the injured player) and ensuring they’ll be healthy and ready to contribute later, they’re dually helping the team. The least productive thing a player can do when he’s injured is continue to play, because he’s just going to suck, injure himself further, and suck more on account of it.
Of course, the baseball player is going to choose the latter every time, despite the fact that it’s completely counter-productive, for reasons detailed above. Therefore, letting the baseball player decide whether he’s fit to play or not is downright criminal. I want to ring someone’s neck for being so stupid.
And this isn’t the first time we’ve dealt with a situation like this. Jordan Schafer–twice a Baseball America top-50 prospect–will probably never have a productive major league career because last year the team’s medical staff allowed him to play for two months WITH A BROKEN WRIST. Jason Heyward–the future of the franchise–was allowed to hit .172/.274/.232 over 25 games while clearly injured (after hitting .301/.421/.596 in 46) before the team bothered to shut him down (BTW, Heyward has hit .322/.437/.491 in 62 games since the DL stint). Troy Glaus got in 31 games of a big fat .189/.281/.292 line while he could barely stand up because his knees were hurting so. Last year Mike Gonzalez was allowed to pitch 8 times in 12 days while he could barely feel the ball coming out of his hand he’d been used so much, and gave up 8 runs in 7 innings.
Either the medical staff simply doesn’t care (‘eh, we’ll just let the players decide’), they’re completely incapable of determining whether or not a player is injured, or they don’t think it’s counter-productive to let players play through injuries. How many more top prospects’ careers are they going to ruin? How many more times are they going to let their cleanup hitter hit .200 for a month before they do something? How much longer will this continue?
It’s time for a change. The medical staff has fucked up enough over the past two years. They’ve been more detrimental to the team’s playoff chances and long-term success than Jesse Chavez or Melky Cabrera possibly could have been. Enough is enough, it’s time to bring in some competent people to monitor the health of the players, because the current group is doing a piss-poor job of that. It’s not that they’ve fucked up, it’s why they’re fucking up. And the ‘why’ is because their fundamental philosophy is in some way flawed beyond repair.
If the Braves don’t do something to address this during the off season, they’ll probably find themselves in a similarly shitty position next year, despite a talented and thoroughly built roster. There’s too much at stake to let the current group of idiots ruin the team’s success again.
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Well said.
This was a good read… but I cant totally agree with you on the leadoff thing… b/c the other question I would simply ask is, Who else fits the bill? It’s not like any other Braves is getting on base that much either and many players, like McCann, J-Hey, Lee, Gonzo are not leadoff guys on a fantasy league team… gotta ride this ship out w/ Omar, b/c he is also primarily responsible for why ATL is where they are
Why do you assume it is the “medical staff”? If there’s an injury that isn’t detected, I’d certainly blame them (and that may be the case to some degree with Schaefer and Heyward) but ultimately this is a management issue. Bobby has often run players out there who clearly needed rest because they didn’t ask to sit. It’s certainly his decision to keep playing Prado every day even though sitting him yesterday (or alternatively tomorrow) would probably benefit him.
Bobby’s been around long enough to see when a player is hurt (most of us non-expert observers can tell at some point). This is also a Wren issue to the extent that he gives Bobby the leeway to deal with this issue as he has in the past. It’s party of Bobby’s “player’s manager” mantra that he lets them play when they want and sits them when they ask (but not forcing them to sit until they totally screw up). Like poor bullpen management, this is just one of the plusses and minuses of having Cox as the manager – albeit a minus a lot of his old school style peers likely share. It’s particularly problematic with young players (like Schaefer and to a lesser degree Heyward) or journeyman (Prado) who clearly operate with some degree of concern over their roster spot – justified or not.
WC/3,
Not that Bobby is completely innocent, here, but the team employs several people whose only job is to monitor the health of the players. It’s their job to make it entirely clear to Bobby that a player is injured and can’t go. Maybe they are and Bobby just ignores them, but I really doubt that’s the case, given Bobby’s track record of constantly giving players an extra day off when they’re returning from a injury.
CAC, don’t know if you read Will Carroll’s NFL injury update today, but he brings up a great point about Kevin Kolb, and how Andy Reid’s actions mean that players will be less likely to report concussion symptoms, for fear of losing their jobs. I think that management has the responsibility to let players know that their performance will dictate playing time, not injury. If they are hurt and come back, they get their job back when they are able to perform at their previous level. I know it is not always cut and dry, but making that your organizational posisiton should help with players not revealing injuries. Not sure if that has been implicitly stated by Braves management to their players, but it should be.
Of course, that is one piece of the puzzle, and I agree that the medical staff has to be more aware and proactive.
Last thought. I have seen you and Carroll tweet back and forth a lot. Any chance you could have him come and guest blog about this subject? I would love to hear his input.
I can’t ever recall agreeing with any article more thoroughly. Nail on the head here, Peter.
Fair enough. It’s certainly entirely possible for high profile sports programs to provide poor medical care (look at the Tyrone Prothro situation at Alabama several years ago) but if the training staff is this weak then management needs to address the problem. I think the more fundamental issue is the culture of sport, particularly for those who are insecure about their position. Low grade nagging injuries are common and many players try to ignore problems or down play them as if they were more serious. Only when push comes to shove is the severity actually determined by the medical team.
Regarding the lineup, I think the issue with Prado isn’t just injuries. For whatever reason, he’s hit better at 1st than he did at 2nd or 3rd. Maybe there’s no causation there but his numbers with runners on aren’t that great all year. That may be a sample size issue. Were it not for the injuries, I’d suggest moving Prado back to first, Lee up to 3rd, Brian up to 4th and McLouth to fifth with Omar at 8th (with his lack of discipline this isn’t ideal but it’s not like AGony is any better there).
1. Yes, Infante and Prado have cooled off at the wrong time, that’s for sure.
2. Hanson showed me a lot last night. He didn’t have the greatest stuff at all, but he gutted out a lot of tough innings against pretty much the best team in baseball.
3. Time to change the tagline again, we need some good mojo!!
I agree about 99% with this article. However, I do not agree with you that in every case, an injured is automatically worse than his healthy backup. Some players have an uncanny ability to play while they are dinged up and sometimes the starter at 70% will still produce more than the backup at 100%.
Otherwise, right on, especially about how they dealt with Schaefer, Heyward, and Glaus.
“PANIC!”
“Atlanta Braves, Making Play-off Chances Disappear since September ’10″
“The Atlanta Braves Don’t Discriminate based on Injury”
Dave/8,
Done.
Everything that CAC states here is spot-on. However, I think what’s missed is that without the counter-productive “tough guy” attitude most of these guys wouldn’t be professional athletes in the first place. It’s because he thinks that he’s invincible that heyward can do what he does.
Steve/12,
I don’t think I really missed that. You’re right, it’s part of the game. And it’s not the issue, here, the issue is how the medical staff enables it to fault, rather than counteracts it, when it matters the most.
The new tagline is hilarious. The best I could come up with is “Chipper Jones is not dead, but if he were, he’d still be cleared to play 3rd base.”
Haha.
Jason/5,
Will probably would’ve been willing to do something like that before football season started, but he’s extremely busy these days on account of it.
I think this is being a little harsh on the medical staff. Incidents like this happen all over baseball, and knowing how an injury will affect a player’s performance is pretty much impossible other than at the extremes. Modern medicine, while it can do amazing things, is still an inexact science. These guys are doctors, not ballplayers and managers, how are they supposed to know whether Martin Prado with a thumb injury that he rested and a groin injury that doesn’t hinder his ability to run is better than Brooks Conrad?
All they can really say is whether continuing to play will cause further damage or not, and whether it will hinder their range of motion. The only example you cite where they were wrong about this is Schafer and that is a situation where he injured himself on a swing and a miss and then probably wasn’t honest about his pain. There was no event that should have made them think hmmm maybe his wrist is broken rather than it just being standard soreness, breaking your wrist by swinging and missing is pretty rare I would think. Should they have sniffed it out, maybe, but hardly malpractice.
Watching Prado play, is there anything he is not capable of doing that he wasn’t pre-injury? To me, it seems to be effecting him in subtle ways, probably to avoid pain, that I’m sure the medical staff warned him and Bobby about. Glaus, do you really need a doctor to tell you he is moving like a mummy? It is up to Bobby and Wren to decide whether they think mummy Glaus>Hinske or potential replacements.
If you look at Prado and Heyward, they had similar injuries to their thumbs. The doctors prescribed rest, but said neither would fully heal until the offseason. Both rested and Heyward came back gangbusters while Prado has struggled. And they said Heyward needed rest when the injury initially happened, it was clearly Bobby’s decision to keep pushing him. And the medical staff was clearly right that continuing to play would not cause further injury, which is all their MDs gives them a valid opinion on.
Look at other situations around the league. Josh Hamilton, the potential AL MVP, has been injured for three weeks, and they just now discovered he had broken ribs. Boston, one of the most well run organizations in baseball and probably the city with the best doctors in the world, caused Jacoby Ellsbury to miss the entire season with their supposed mismanagement of his injuries. And then allowed AL MVP Dustin Pedroia to play 2 games with a broken foot, and then come back from the broken foot too soon which required season ending surgery after being only 2 days. Guess what, they warned Dustin and Francona that could happen. Don’t know about the rash of other injuries the Red Sox have suffered, but I’m sure some of them could be blamed on the medical staff if you wanted to.
I could keep rambling on and on, but I think this is enough for now. I’m sure the Braves have the best sports medicine doctors in Georgia. Baseball is just such a grinding game, pretty much every player is going to be in some sort of discomfort during the season, and performance can be affected by changing the slightest of variables. Seems like the perfect situation to blame doctors for things they really can’t control to me.
Players’ manager – yep that’s Bobby. Love the man to death, but come on -he’s sitting there looking at the best bench and bullpen in baseball and what does he doe? Throws the same tired, injured players out there day in and day out. Put in ERIC HINSKE! Put in Rossy, Brooksy…Troy can play 3rd, so can Brooksy – why keep Martin in? I watched Troy play 3rd at his AAA rehab and he looked great – no question Eric Hinske is the best asset to the team – in the clubhouse and off the bench… Put him at 1st or LF – just put him in the freakin’ line-up — the Braves were winning when he was in there!!!!
@CAC
I’m not sure if you are aware of this, but I know a guy in the medical staff in the lower rungs of the organization and word on the streets is that most of the staff from the Braves and Gwinnett are on the way out after this season. I’m sure you don’t care much for rumors but he is basing his job off of it so I think its legit.
Peter: love the new tagline – classic!
I agree about Martin – you worry about him first and the Wildcard second to that. That said – who could the Braves reasonably play in either situation that would be better (or even as good) as the production we’re getting from Omar & Martin?
For a team that had a lot of good luck in some ways, this team has sure been unlucky in others.
well said! and while we’re on the subject, why oh why does it always take several days to get a seemingly small issue resolved?
Saito needed to get his shoulder looked and needed an MRI.. he had to wait 3 DAYS to even get looked at!!! 3 days! The guy is an intrical part of the team! I think it’s to everyones best interest to know as soon as possible where he stands!
And this isn’t the only time this has happened.. it seems to have happened for years..
Brian Mccann had to wait several days for a contact fitting?? There were no optometrists available?
All the time, it seems like a player gets hurt.. he has to wait several days to be evaluated… why can’t it happen sooner?
I’m not even saying surgery, just let us know what has happened…
Wil/19,
That’s fantastic news if true. I sure do hope it is.
So will the difference between winning the division and missing the postseason entirely simply be not being able to convince Hayward and Prado not to slide headfirst?
Couldn’t agree more.
Regarding the lead-off spot, I have to agree that McLouth may well be the best choice, though that necessitates him playing in the field as well, which is unfortunate. But he walks enough that if he hits at all, he’ll be an improvement over Infante.
CAC, agree with everything. Schafer is a real shame.
Do we keep KK next year? Will he rebound? Rotation suddenly seems thin. Not sure we should move Lowe even if we could.
Keep Lowe. He had a better year, and he’s an innings/eater. Make KK a long-relief mop-up emergency start guy, and promote Beachy.
Well we did it, we lost the wild-card lead on an off day. It’ll be a dog fight from here on out. We’re up against two teams from our division who we struggle with and who will trying their damndest to spoil our season. Oh yeah, and three more with the Phils, who just bitch-slapped us. But I still like our chances….{cough}
I don’t think there’s any way Lowe gets traded, and I think there’s a strong possibility Kawakami gets traded.
Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Lowe, Minor rotation.
Venters, O’Flaherty, Dunn, Kimbrel, Marek, (best RH-Reliever they can afford, my guess being J.J. Putz), Martinez bullpen.
I know he’s said he’s retiring at the end of the year, but is there any chance Wagner actually uses the option and comes back?
Also I don’t remember if it was a team or player option.
It was an vesting option based on appearances which he has reached.
You didn’t mention Moylan in your bullpen for next year…..do you think he is gone? I would actually prefer Putz over him.
Fantastic post. It mystifies me why the Braves keep trying to ruin players.
As good as Wags is pitching this year, i think he’ll get the itch to come back. As long as this season doesn’t end on a bitter note.
If this ain’t trouble, it’ll sure do ’till trouble gets here.
Brian/31,
Yeah, I think he’s gone next year. His walk rate has gotten worse 3 years in a row and his velocity still isn’t back since the surgery.
One of the biggest problems that I have is that, if we were able to actually rest our people, instead of letting them play injured is the WAR. How many wins did we give away by letting a guy do poorly?
that’s a mighty young bullpen. i doubt there have been any studies on veteran presence in a bullpen, but the age of that bullpen concerns me a bit.
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It’s really not a young bullpen at all. The players aren’t experienced, but the only one that’s particularly young is Kimbrel.
2011 Age
Jonny Venters — 26
Eric O’Flaherty — 26
Michael Dunn — 26
Craig Kimbrel — 23
Stephen Marek — 27
Christhian Martinez — 29
You would think it’d be younger because they’re mostly good prospects coming up, but Dunn was 21 before he started pitching, Marek has developed at a snail’s pace, and the organization fucked around with Venters starting until he was 25.
Peter,
Is that assuming Beachy is in AAA ready to come up should a need arise, or dealt?
I’d felt he’d be in that Medlen role from early this season, longer relief outings, some high leverage situations, and ready to start should someone go down. With a bullpen going into next year of (if healthy) Venters, Kimbrel, EOF, Marek, Dunn, Beachy, Martinez, with possibly one of the lefties packaged in a deal over the winter, and a veteran either signed or retained (Moylan, Saito could fit that bill).
Would Martinez be in a bigger role next year based on this year’s results? He’s been a pretty decent long reliever. Not as bad as the “Who the fuck is Christian Martinez?” line you made a few months back, but it makes it seem that his stock went from nothing to rather good
I’m assuming Beachy will be in AAA until he’s needed to start. They really need to build up his innings so he can make 30 or so starts in 2012.
Saito is actually eligible for arbitration. Do you think we offer? I can’t imagine him getting much more than Putz would cost.
It’s not clear to me that Saito is arb-eligible. I have no evidence that this is the case, but frequently NPB players negotiate clauses in their contract that prevents clubs from offering them arbitration.
Either way, Putz is a better reliever and isn’t 40 years old, I’d much rather have him than Saito.
I remember reading something about it on MLBTraderumors, but I can’t find it now. Cot’s Baseball Contracts has him as third-year eligible: http://bit.ly/bjF2rE. Saito did have a clause in his Red Sox contract preventing them from offering arbitration if they didn’t pick up his option. Since he doesn’t have an option with the Braves, I’m not sure how it would play out.
Would you prefer a multi-year deal for Putz over Saito for one? I’m personally not a huge fan of multi-year deals for relievers in their mid-30s.
It seems like next year’s pitching staff should be fine. I still think that next year’s biggest need is for a right-handed bat to pair with heyward, given the uncertainty around chipper’s situation. My pipe dream is konerko on a one-year deal….
….and every time Adam Wainwright throws a pitch, I throw up….
Jason/45,
I do not like the idea of giving a mid-30′s reliever a multi-year deal. I wouldn’t be opposed to the team signing Rafael Soriano to a 2-year deal, but I think they could grab Putz on a 1-year, $8 million deal or so, giving him the opportunity to close.
Steve/46,
I absolutely agree that a RH-bat is the biggest need, but that RH-bat has to fit in LF or CF. Freddie Freeman is going to be the team’s first baseman next year. Unless they shock the world and trade for Hanley Ramirez, the only place to put a new bat is in the OF. My guess is the Braves will sign Pat Burrell, and I won’t complain about that one bit. Paul Konerko is out of the question.
Wow. I definitely disagree. My complaints would be loud and long if the Braves put a Heyward-McLouth-Burrell outfield out there on Opening Day. Both offensively and defensively that would be a disastrously bad outfield.
Might they not have a shot at a real CF and then put McLouth in left?
If McLouth can’t hit well enough as a CFer, there’s no way he can hit well enough as a LF’er.
He’s basically been good for like 2 wins purely from hitting as he’s Adam Dunn in the outfield.
He’s going to be 35 and he had an absolutely terrible time with Tampa.
Unless the Braves get him for like 3-5mil, it just seems like that would blow up in their face.