Where have all the lefties gone?
March 23, 2011 at 9:25 pm by Capitol Avenue Club under Atlanta Braves
With the news that Jose Ortegano and Lee Hyde were claimed on waivers by the Yankees and the Nationals, respectively, the Braves now have five left-handed pitchers on their 40-man roster: Jonny Venters, George Sherrill, Eric O’Flaherty, Mike Minor, and Billy Wagner. Billy Wagner is of course retired, meaning there are effectively only four left-handers on the roster. Three of them will be in the big-league bullpen at the onset of the season (Venters, Sherrill, O’Flaherty), the other one will either be in the big-league rotation or in the Gwinnett rotation.
Ortegano and Hyde aren’t the first two lefthanders the Braves have lost this offseason, Michael Dunn was dealt to the Marlins in the Dan Uggla trade, Mariano Gomez signed with the Tigers as a six-year free agent, and Scott Diamond was selected by the Twins in the major league phase of the Rule 5 draft. What was an embarrassment of riches a few months ago is now an area of concern. It’s a luxury to have three lefties in the MLB bullpen, but George Sherrill wasn’t any good last year, Eric O’Flaherty has historically had injury issues, and Jonny Venters’ track record of success is exactly one year long (2011 will be his eighth professional season if you include 2006, when he was out for the year having required Tommy John surgery). That’s not to say I’m concerned with the group of lefthanders they still have on the roster, I’m not, just that the depth they had was a nice safety net. That depth is completely gone.
So who is next in line if the Braves need another left-handed reliever at some point during the 2011 season?
Looking at the list of top-40 prospects, I’ve ranked nine left-handed pitchers and none of them are strong candidates to fill a relief role if a mid-season need for another lefty arises:
Mike Minor — Mentioned previously, not a candidate for a relief role.
Carlos Perez — Will begin the 2011 season at Class A Rome, several stops away from being a candidate for a big-league job, regardless of role.
Michael Dunn — Mentioned previously, traded to the Marlins.
Brett Oberholtzer — Might begin the year at AA, if he does he’ll probably still be there at the end of the year. 2012 ETA more likely and has enough stuff/approach to pitch out of the rotation, so that’s where they’ll likely keep him.
Lee Hyde — Mentioned previously, claimed on waivers by the Nationals.
Chris Masters — Probably ticketed for Class A Advanced Lynchburg at the start of 2011, nowhere near ready for the big leagues.
Amilcar Gaxiola — So far away it’s not even worth discussing his timetable.
Steven Kent — A true relief prospect with a decent ceiling, but injuries have gotten in the way of his development thus far and he’s likely still a few years away. Will begin 2011 at Lynchburg or Mississippi.
Scott Diamond — Mentioned previously, selected by the Minnesota Twins in the major-league phase of the Rule 5 draft.
There’s a chance Atlanta gets Diamond back from the Twins, but if they thought he was capable of contributing this year they wouldn’t have left him unprotected in the first place. David O’Brien explains in an article dealing with the “why is Billy Wagner still on the roster?” question*:
They went thru the Rule 5 draft and lost LHP Scott Diamond to the Twins when theoretically they could have protected Diamond by adding him to the spot Wagner is holding at the moment.
This specific question has been addressed several times since the Rule 5 draft. Even if the Braves had a spot open on the 40-man, Wren specifically said they would not have protected Diamond, and that they actually had a better shot at getting him later than they would’ve if they had protected him. Here’s the reasoning: If the Braves had protected Diamond before the Rule 5, he would almost certainly have been one of the first players dropped from the 40-man at the end of spring training when the Braves needed the roster spot for a player who might help them this season (Diamond, they determined, was/is not ready to help them this season. They don’t need him this season.)
In not protecting him, they lost him to Minnesota in the Rule 5 draft. The Twins now must keep him on their 25-man (major league) roster the entire 2011 season. There’s a good chance they won’t be able to do that, that they will decide they can’t carry him and need to use that roster spot for a player ready to help the Twins win now. In that case, they must offer him back to the Braves for $25,000, half of the claiming price the Twins paid. If that happens, the Braves would do it and take him back, then wouldn’t have to protect him but rather could simply send him to the minor leagues, since he’s got minor league options. They wouldn’t need to add him to their 40-man and could just let him continue developing in the minors for the season, then could protect him next winter if he’s ready.
*Please consult that article rather than asking us why Wagner is still on the roster if you’re curious.
So, who would the Braves turn to if they need another lefty?
There are three guys to keep an eye on.
Yohan Flande is a guy the Braves signed as a six-year free agent this offseason after he’d spent his entire career in the Phillies’ organization. I know very little about him, but he had a 4.8 K/9 as a starter at Class AA Reading last year. That’s obviously not enough information to dismiss him as a candidate and the Braves obviously saw something there that motivated them to sign him. I’ll reserve judgment until I see him pitch, but, knowing what I know, I certainly wouldn’t peg him as a strong option at this point.
Thomas Palica was drafted by the Braves in the 10th round of the 2007 Rule 4 draft and he’s made an appearance on my top-40 list before. Still, he has all of 41 and 2/3 inning above Class A Advanced and needs to sharpen his command before he’s receives any serious consideration for a big-league job.
The most interesting option is Richard Sullivan. Martin Gandy and C.B. Wilkins have a great article in the Maple Street Press Braves Annual called “Finding The Next Jonny Venters”. Two lefthanders were mentioned, Hyde and Sullivan. Here’s what they had to say about the latter:
The Skinny: Sullivan was drafted in the 11th round of the 2008 draft, a rare Savannah College of Art and Design selection. He spent 2010 shuffling between Mississippi’s rotation and bullpen, finishing with a 5.09 ERA and a 1.50 WHIP.
Why We Haven’t Heard of Him: Sullivan hasn’t really put up any special numbers in his career, and his numbers as a starter in 2010 were atrocious: a 1-7 record, a 7.17 ERA, and a 1.90 WHIP in 64 innings. But, as a reliever, he was great, with a 2.72 ERA and a 1.03 WHIP in 56.1 innings.
Why He Might Be the Next Venters: His secondary pitches–a hard slider and a popping change-up–are his best pitches, and he mixes them effectively with a low-90s fastball. That kind of junk coming from a low-angle lefty is typically a recipe for success. If he continues to dominate out of the pen the way he did in 2010, it won’t be long before Atlanta is forced to give him a long look.
It sounds like Sullivan has a decent chance of emerging as a serviceable lefty-specialist at the least. Right now I’d say he’s probably fourth on the organizations left-handed relief depth chart given the lack of other options. He’s got enough stuff/approach for the role and, like Venters, might be able to take off if handed a full-time bullpen job.
That’s not to say the Braves should be satisfied with what they’ve got. Look for them to monitor the waiver wire closely and put in a claim if a pitcher becomes available that they feel is capable of becoming a serviceable major-league left-handed reliever. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them sign another 6-year FA or non-tender that’s still available to a minor-league deal, either. If everything goes right–Sherrill holds lefties in check, Venters proves that last year was no fluke, and O’Flaherty stays healthy–none of this will matter, but like they say you’ve got to plan for the worst and hope for the best.
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Scott Proctor was one more Joe Torre call to the bullpen from having to learn to pitch lefty; maybe there’s still time.
Nice.
Just a few points:
It doesnt matter what hand you throw with if you arent very good (i.e. Sherrill and Proctor).
If no one can hit you from either side of the plate, its equally unimportant which hand you throw with (i.e. Kimbrel and Venters). Who doesnt like having them, in any order, for the 8th and 9th innings?
Its hard to prove you can pitch against Major League hitting when no one gives you a chance (i.e. Marek). Poor Marek.
Shaunson/3
I agree to a certain point but Sherrill’s career splits between RH & LH hitters would suggest he can be effective against LH hitters but completely ineffective against RH hitters.
Marek probably haven’t been given a fair shot but hopefully he will put up great numbers at AAA this year and be called up later this season.
By keeping Billy on the 40 man roster (Please note I am not suggesting he is coming back) he has effectively taken the option away from the Braves to protect Diamond/Hyde. FW surely will be calling Billy’s agent every day and get the paper work filed? If I am forced to keep someone who has resigned/retired on my payroll and I can’t replace hat person until the paper work is processed I will be OK for a couple of months but it has been way longer?
Roger,
As quoted in the article, DOB explained why they wouldn’t have protected Diamond even if they had the roster spot.
I’m a little more curious to see why Hyde was waived, I always thought he had a future with Atlanta. Good stuff from the left side.
Ortegano on the other hand I’m very surprised was even claimed, he’s a complete non-prospect.
Regarding Marek, I think they just sent him down because he has options and they know they’ll need another RP at some point. I imagine he’ll be the first right hander called up.
Roger/4,
Yes, his splits do suggest he can pitch well against LHs. However, I’ll take a RHP who lefties hit about .275 against and righties hit .225 rather than Sherrill, who had righties hitting some outlandish number like .415 against him last year.
CAC/6,
You would think they would have taken notice of Marek’s ridiculous ERA and filthy stuff last year in AA and AAA and not even wasted ink on a new Proctopus contract.
Shaunson/7
I think we will have to agree to disagree on Sherill as I would take his career sub 0.200 against LH hitters to support O’Flaherty and Venters as LH relief coming out of the bullpen. Oh well, can’t agree on everything in life!
Marek will more than likely replace Linebrink next season and if all works out the back end of games will see Kimbrel, Venters & Marek feature for the Braves in 2012.
CAC, have you seen Vavaro pitch in person and if you have is he any good?
Roger/8
I accept your argument as reasonable concerning Sherrill, my only problem with that is when management decides it wants to give him an inning of work to give another reliever a night of rest and he HAS to face a RH hitter (or two, or three). If only we could have kept Wagner for one more year…
Ahh well, I’m just glad that our biggest concerns in the Braves blogosphere are our last two bench spots, our 6th and 7th relievers, and how we have 3 legit options as our 5th starter.
And that, my good sir, would be hard to argue.
Most teams struggle with finding two serviceable left-handers for the ‘pen. The braves have 3, which should cause the phillies all kinds of fits. My two takeaways:
1. As CAC states, here’s hoping they don’t need another lefty (due to either injury or ineffectiveness)
2. Here’s hoping Freddie is smart enough to use his relievers properly. Hope springs eternal….
CAC, have you seen Vavaro pitch in person and if you have is he any good?
I haven’t seen him in a game. I saw him throw a bullpen session from a weird angle a few days ago (an equipment shed was blocking my view of half the ball’s path, including the catcher) and he threw all FB’s. It wasn’t nearly enough to make an informed assessment.
Any scuttlebutt as to what Billy Wagner is waiting on? Not sure what the wait would be about or why the Braves would hold his roster spot if there were other needs. Any chance he gets bored in Virginia and pulls a Roger Clemens mid season comeback? Wishful thinking I’m sure, but the whole scenario has been odd.
My understanding is the Braves can’t retire a player without the player or his agent sending the paper work in and as CAC’s link to DOB’s article reads it could happen any day (That was back in early Feb). It does seem strange but we could only assume the paper work is sitting on someone’s desk? Wishful thinking and rumours will only stop if the paperwork is finalized. The longer this drags out the stranger it looks!
Shaunson/10, No argument on the sentiment that we have a pretty good ball club and we thank god are not discussing if Campillo will be our best option as a SP!
Well, DOB made some vague reference to Wagner automatically dropping off the roster if he doesn’t report for spring training. He didn’t, but he hasn’t. I suspect DOB is just regurgitating whatever the Braves’ official line is on this, and doesn’t know any better than us why Wagner is taking so long or when it will end.
Perhaps if he still hasn’t reported by Opening Day, this alleged automatic drop will happen. You’d have to hope so, anyway.
Stephen Marek can’t break into the majors while Kyle Davies somehow has a starting rotation gig.
There would seem to be some injustice here.
I’m a lifelong baseball fan, and I’m kind of sick of all the specialization these days (Closer, Set-up man, Platoon outfielder, LH bat off the bench, etc.). Bottom line if guys are strong enough to get outs, it shouldn’t matter how many LH relievers we have. I know the division is LH batter heavy, but Venters and Kimbrel are nasty either way and a healthy O’Flaherty has posted good numbers against lefties in his career.
Clark, god damn it, what did I say about that in the article?
Anon21,
They can put him on the restricted list, which basically clears a 40-man spot and suspends his pay. They could have done that for a month now, no reason to yet because they currently don’t need a spot on the 40-man and he’s not getting a paycheck at the moment.
I disagree with Maple Street’s statemnt that Sullivan hasn’t ever put up any impressive numbers.
His first year in organization he started at Danville. He was approximately 21 from a low division college against a lot of 18 and 19 year olds. He pitched around 20 innings in relief and had about 23 strikeouts and 1 walk. He was sent up late to Rome and asw I remember k/9 was close to 9 and walk rate around 2 per 9. The next year his numbers tumbled and he hsn’t been able to seem to consistently get “good” again.
At one time I remember Wqgner’s agent saying he hadn’t been paid his $250,000 bonus or option buy out and that if he retired, that would “waive” it. If they need to send Bobby to Charlottesville to get the damn thing done, get her done.
Cliff,
There is no option buy out or roster bonus. That option became guaranteed when he finished his 50th game in 2010. He either pitches and gets a $6.5 million salary or retires and gets nothing.
CAC,
there’s been reports, by DOB i believe, that Wagner’s contract includes a $250,000 bonus if he’s still on the roster for 2011 ST.
Reading between the lines, it appears BW believes he’s owed that, despite retiring, while the Braves disagree. he probably will be owed the $6.5M if the Braves drop him off the roster, so they haven’t. All the ‘irrellevant’ claims re Diamond and Hyde could just be BS from the front office.
Boom!/21,
Those reports are simply incorrect. Wagner’s contract:
# 1 year/$7M (2010), plus 2011 option
* signed by Atlanta as a free agent 12/2/09
* 10:$6.75M, 11: $6.5M club option ($0.25M buyout)
* 2011 option guaranteed with 50 games finished in 2010
He finished 64 games in 2010, so the 2011 option is guaranteed, there’s no buyout. Again, either he pitches and gets his $6.5 million salary (or a pro-rated portion if he only does half a year or something) or he retires and gets nothing.
Does Billy Wagner just not want to play for a non-Bobby Cox coached Braves team?
Is he trying to come back from injury, but isn’t sure he will be able to, so wants to stay retired until he is thoroughly re-cooperated?
I know from what the beat writers/ team officials are saying, its just a paperwork issue. They of course have never tried to hide things from the public by giving company lines (dripping with sarcasm: Ayabar, Chippers retirement thoughts, etc).
Maybe I’m wrong, but every month that paperwork is missing, makes this situation look odder, and odder. You have to admit that much.
@23
I’m pretty sure I read something a while back that said Wagner had filed the paperwork. Maybe it takes a bit of time to process?? Not sure. I also read something about qualifying for some sort of compensation were he on the roster at a certain point in time? Not sure about that one, either.
LOL, CAC’s getting tired of all the ignorant commenters.
from Cots:
“Are the contract figures here accurate?
More or less. The numbers are not official, but they have been collected as reported by the Associated Press or beat writers covering each club. Any additions, questions or comments may be directed to CotContracts@gmail.com.
”
I guess it all depends on the wording of that $250,000 buyout. But if Cot’s source is basically DOB, then i’m gonna go with what DOB has said the most recently:
“There is a $250,000 buyout of that option, but the Braves don’t pay it if he retires (or even if he doesn’t formally retire, but opts simply not to show up for spring training).
”
I think the Braves were forced not to take him off the roster prior to ST, but now are just trying to avoid the possible bad PR of putting him on the restricted list.
Brandon Beachy is your 5th starter.
It might be best if any comments that include the name Billy Wagner or Brett Gardner be banned from the site.
1 week until baseball that counts!!! Opening day should be a national holiday.
@28, @25
I understand frustration over answering questions concerning something that was explained in another article.
I don’t understand getting upset at discussion.
I know what is being reported, and I am just commenting that I don’t believe that is all there is to the story. I’m probably wrong, I do that sometimes.
Why the hate though?
I think it’s just that there’s nothing to do about the Wags sit except throw around wild speculation. Yes, it’s odd, but all we’ve got to go on is what we’ve been told. It’s not like there’s even rumors from the national media that run counter to what the local media is saying. So all we can do is guess.
back to the original question. whither cole rorhbaugh? not long ago he was considerd a top prospect; almost a ‘can’t miss’ to make it to the bigs in some capacity eventually.
For as adamant as Wagner was last year about it being his final season, I highly doubt that he’s having any second thoughts regardless of how this plays out. If nothing has played out so far, and we haven’t heard anything to the contrary of retirement, you can’t possibly think that he’ll be coming back.
Honestly, this is a subject that, if there were some kind of conjecture of the opposite being true, we’d have heard about. Knowing a bit about how Wagner has been in the past, he hasn’t been one to act like a Roger Clemens or a Brett Favre.
@32
Agree. Nothing in the past to go on, concerning Wags straight-shooter attitude and remarks. Still. I just don’t understand why the paperwork is taking, what 6 months now, to get turned in.
You guys are right, there is nothing in the media contrary to what the Braves are preaching.
You know how when that girl ditches you, and as you talk about it, she says how good you are, and its not your fault she’s just through with relationships for a while, yadda yadda yadda, and then continues to call. Never getting around to breaking off the relationship. So you start thinking “maybe she wants to stick around, why else would she not break off contact”.
Wishful thinking of a broken heart. Maybe I just got a little of that rolling around in my head with Wags.
Moving on.
With O’Flaherty’s back problems, Venter’s overuse of a surgically repaired arm last season, and Sherrill’s (what seems like) head issues; I sure would have liked to see us retain Jose Ortegano.
I have a hard time believing that we will pick up three guys that are dropped off other teams 40 man. (Wags spot, + the two open spots currently).
Seems a waste.
RE: 40 man roster
It makes absolutely no sense to drop guys off the 40 man roster when you don’t have anybody pushing for that spot. Since the Braves have 2 spots that should be open (Billy Wagner-retired and Kris Medlen-60 day DL) it’s really stupid in my opinion to a) not protect Scott Diamond b) lose Jose Oretegano and Lee Hyde to waivers.
The rationale on Diamond makes no sense. They said they didn’t want to have to drop him off the 40 man roster down the road to make room for win-now help. But here we are several months later and Wagner is still on the roster, Medlen has still not been moved to the 60-day DL and the Braves just dropped two guys off the 40 man roster without any pressure to do so to add other players.
Right now the only non 40 man roster guys who are still competing for a spot are Ed Lucas and Wilkin Ramirez. Conrad, Mather, Schafer, Diory, Hicks are all on the roster. None of the bullpen competitors are non roster guys. Hell there’s even going to be another open spot on the roster once the Braves realize Scott Proctor sucks and cut him to avoid paying his $750k.
So losing three LHP’s for $50k is asinine to me. Maybe Diamond, Hyde or Ortegano would have never contributed to the Atlanta Braves, but does that justify losing the ability to find out if they would have for no return?
Timeline of how the roster should have worked:
Put Medlen on the 60 day DL.
Add Diamond to the 40 man to protect him in the Rule 5 draft
Wait for Proctor to self destruct and release him
Add Lucas and Ramirez to the 40 man roster
(Ortegano and Hyde would have never had to be dropped)
And from that point on if you add a player worthy of the 40 man roster then it would be okay to risk losing Hyde or Ortegano to waivers.
No one looks good with a mustache/28,
LOL.
BabyGoatEater/29,
This article is about left-handed relief depth. The last thing I wanted was for the thread to turn into a discussion about why Wagner is still on the roster. I have nothing to offer here and it’s been discussed thousands of times to no end. I even made it a point of interest to tell people not to ask me about it in the article.
I guess it was inevitable, I can’t mention Billy Wagner’s name without the thread diverging into a discussion on the topic. I’ve learned my lesson.
bravemarine/31,
Always liked him. He’s been hurt and ineffective (probably some causation involved) for the past few years. I hope he puts it all together but I’m not holding my breath.
BabyGoatEater/34,
We’ve had this discussion before, too, but I don’t think Venters was overused last year.
Joe/35,
Do you think they’re going to go all year without ever reaching 40/40 spots filled on their 40-man? No. They’ll need that space eventually, probably next week.
…………
All: Jose Ortegano is an awful pitcher who simply doesn’t have the stuff to get major league hitters out. I’m much more surprised by the fact that he was actually claimed than the fact that he was placed on waivers. There’s a reason he made it all the way to the Yankees (who have the 29th wavier priority of 30 teams for players from NL organizations placed on waivers).
Hyde on the other hand I’m surprised to see waived. There’s also a reason he didn’t make it past the Nationals (who have the 3rd waiver priority of 30 teams for players from NL organizations placed on waivers). He must have pissed somebody off or something.
Who are Billy Wagner and Brett Garner again?
In other news….thank god we bother discussing anything about Beachy and Minor battling it out with brittle J.J. leaving after 1 inning today, looks like Minor will be in the minors for all of 10 minutes……ah pitching depth
Yeah, for all this hoopla about who the fifth starter is going to be, looks like it might not matter at all.
That’s a bummer that Hyde got claimed. It strikes me as odd they put him on waivers.
yeah, i didn’t really mean to add to the roster-situation-that-must-not-be-mentioned. i got suckered in. my bad.
anyway, there’s announced cuts. So, Lucas beat out Diory?
Looks like Hicks and Lucas are battling for the reserve SS job. Ramirez and Young are battling for the reserve CF job. Wouldn’t surprise me if Hicks or Lucas won the former, I’m betting on Matt Young for the latter.
@43: I agree with the Matt Young assessment. However, from looking at today’s game, Ed Lucas got the start at 3rd, moved over to SS to accommodate Hicks playing 3rd and then he moved to 1B. While he may be average/below-average at some of those positions, it did strike me with the thought that the Braves look at him much more favorably.
Then again, Brooks Conrad could still make the team. And we’d both be wrong.
So Juan Abreu and Jairo Asencio were optioned to Gwinnett as well.. I don’t know much about either except that they have sub-1 ERAs this spring training as well as the fact that Ascencio used to be Valdez. I thought that Ascencio would be Martinez’ main competition vs Proctor. I guess it’s all up to Martinez now to save the bullpen from disaster.
Jon,
I don’t view Brooks Conrad as part of the same competition as Lucas/Hicks/Young/Ramirez. Those guys are competing for jobs because they can play SS or CF, Conrad can’t. Conrad is competing with Mather, if anyone, for a job as a pinch-hitter.
So you don’t think Conrad’s even in the battle. I know he doesn’t play SS, but I wouldn’t think the Braves would string him along letting him think he’s competing for a roster spot if they’ve decided he’s not going to make it. You think they’ve told him you’re going down barring injury, but will likely be the first call-up if there’s an injury?
Bowman thinks that Conrad and Lucas will win the final two spots. Not that that means anything.
GT Alum,
No, I think he’s competing with Mather for a job as a pinch-hitter. I just said that.
DOB does too. Those guys are closer to the club than me, but I just don’t think going into the season without a reserve center fielder is a good idea, nor do I think Mather is capable of serving as a competent center fielder in a pinch.
Here’s to hoping Proctor is still around just as trade bait. I mean, why cut him now? They owe them the same if they cut him now than if they cut him at the end of ST. Keep pitching him and hope he shows enough to bring something back in a trade. If not, then cut him.
I really doubt they’d open the season without a long arm in the pen.
Maybe Proctor or Sherril would accept a stint in AAA? Neither may have a choice.