Why is Today the Day Everyone Wants To Fire Fredi Gonzalez?
June 13, 2012 at 5:40 pm by Ben Duronio under Atlanta Braves
Over the past two years, many have voiced their opinions on how they dislike Fredi’s in-game management, including yours truly. His reliance on small sample sizes, odd bullpen decisions, and frustrating handling of Jason Heyward have certainly been frustrating, but I am having a hard time understanding why today, of all days, on every Braves blog people are calling for his name.
I understand the Braves lost yesterday, but there was nothing Fredi did out of the ordinary that Bobby Cox wouldn’t have done last night. Bobby would have let Minor pitch in the eighth and likely would have taken him out after a base runner came up with Curtis Granderson, the player with the most home runs against left-handed pitching last year, coming up to the plate.
Bobby would have brought in Venters too. And he would have stuck with him to face A-Rod, even though many of us wouldn’t. Maybe there are managers who would have brought in Kimbrel, as they should have, but I do not think most would make that decision. The inherent problem in all of this is that managers, for the most part, manage the game in a very similar fashion. They have these unwritten rules of how to manage and how the game has been played for years, and most of them stick to those rules.
Cristhian Martinez has been underused, certainly mostly to the fault of Gonzalez. He was the pitcher that should have been used last night instead of Gearrin, but I’m not sure that it was a fireable offense, though in my opinion it was an against the odds decision.
Bobby had his issues with the bullpen too, and I am in no way defending Gonzalez as a good — or even as an average — manager. I just want to understand why today is the day that everyone thinks it’s time to fire him as opposed to all the other days when questionable decisions are made. He has made many worse decisions than he did last night. So what’s the deal?
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IMO, it’s because it was of the following 4 things :
1)it’s a war of attrition by Fredi on the team and the fans, his constant stream of poor decisions followed by even dumber statements (remember what he said to DOB the other day when Livan got shelled?) He does lots of dumb things often, and last night just tipped the scales
2) the team is better than their record and many of us feel they win games despite him
3)He doesn’t seem to have the ability to motivate players, Bobby made lots of dumb moves sure, but boy could he wring the most out of the talent he was given(well, until the last few years or so). fredi seems to make it worse
4) he claims to be a “sabr guy” yet he doesn’t seem to understand that players have split stats, much less read them. He trusts small sample sizes and his “gut” and his gut is dumber than a box of hair
4.5) Terry Francona is available, and I want him managing the Braves
P.S. I have been wanting him fired since about halfway last season due to his bonehead moves and sheer cluelessness
I agree mostly on 1-4. I’m not really expecting us to go grab Francona…so, 4.5 is not an issue for me. I have been frustrated with Fredi from the start…so, there is nothing special about today for me. But, I do think he is particularly frustrating for one additional reason…he has no consistent baseball philosophy.
As a fan, it’s really annoying not to know what the hell your manager is going to do night-in and night-out. With Bobby, I felt like I at least knew what he was going to do (maybe I didn’t always like what he did, but I knew what he was going to do). Bobby was going to let guys hit through slumps in key batting order spots (e.g. KJ hitting 2nd during his awful slump), he was going to play the lefty-right matchup game with both hitter and pitchers, he was going give his starters a long leash, he was going to favor defensive guys over offense, and he gave top prospects (cough…Heyward…cough) every chance to succeed if they were playing the game the “right way”. As for Fredi, I don’t have any idea what he’s going to do…he platoons Heyward with Diaz because Heyward is a lefty, is obsessed with lefty/righty alternating lineups, but then he throws that all out the window when it comes to bullpen matchups (e.g. Gearrin v. Swisher…or mandating Venters/EOF in the 8th even if the 7th or 9th is lefty-heavy or has the heart of the order) or doesn’t platoon Freeman or Constanza like he does with Heyward (yes, I know we don’t have a RH 1B backup). He also likes to be SABR/modern when it’s convenient (e.g. batting the pitcher 8th…crazy!!) and then not care about numbers when it doesn’t match his “gut”. Add to that that he lacks any of Bobby’s intangibles, such as taking responsibility even if it’s not his fault, fighting for his guys (no, I don’t believe he has to get kicked out of every game), or putting his guys in a position to succeed (unless Gearrin is the new Joey Devine, Bobby would’ve never put him in that situation). Basically, I think Fredi is managing based on how he thinks Bobby would manage or in the way that would best cover his ass (last year it was overusing the pen…this year it’s underusing the pen…at least, I could always count on Bobby always overusing the pen) and without regard for the actual situation or logic.
Meh, much as I dislike Fredi, I’m certainly no more convinced he should be fired today than other day.
I don’t, in fact, think he should be fired at all.
I’m still going to point out often what a spectacularly boneheaded move it is bring in Gearrin to face a lefty in a tie game. And I agree, even though Venters was clearly struggling, I would still take him as a good chance to get a GIDP with the bases loaded and 1 out. I just can’t explain why Kimbrel wasn’t warming or why Minor was yanked for giving up a weak ground ball while pitching a shutout.
The fact remains that there simply aren’t a lot of good managers out there who are proven to be able to handle a team dynamic AND make good in game decisions. Many of the most successful managers of all time were known for their spectacular inability to micromanage games. Fredi has consistently demonstrated the makes very bad in-game decisions, has not always handled his players very well (and got fired over it), and doesn’t particularly seem to learn (or want to learn) from what many people consider his mistakes.
I still can’t name off the top of my head anyone I’d *rather* have who is available. I actually like Terry Francona and think he’s probably an improvement. But to can Fredi in the middle of a successful season for being mediocre? Naw. Not by a long shot.
Ben… I love ya and all, but using Bobby Cox and Fredi Gonzales in the same paragraph let alone sentence is a slap in the face to Bobby.
In all seriousness though, I think the reason it seems to have boiled over today is for a couple reasons.
First, while he’s made mistakes throughout the season, it seems he’s done them on a hit and miss basis. In other words, his decision may kill us all one game, but then there’ll be a couple games of breathing periods for us to calm down before another bad decision. In this case, we were the victims of bad decisions for 3 straight games now.
Second, this most recent decision has put most of us over the top because this game was most certainly in hand against a very hated (rightly or not) Yankees team which we are comparing ourselves to as a team (again, rightly or not) and then suddenly, it was gone.
I’ve gone on record in a previous blog stating that I think managers get both too much praise and too much ridicule for wins and losses. The fact is, that these are professional players that are paid to get the jobs assigned to them done. It’s only the manager’s job to put them out there. So no, the game wasn’t lost because of Fredi, directly. Venters blew it with inconsistent location until he threw three straight pitches right down the middle. It was only a matter of time until A-Rod jacked one.
With that in mind though, Fredi did have a choice of making a change. Whether he thought Venters could get through it, didn’t have people ready, didn’t have people available, whatever the reason, it hurt us.
Fact of the matter is, we can call for his job all we want. It’s not going to happen. There’s going to be days where we never mention it. There’s going to be days that we go overboard on it like today. It’s just a part of being a “fan” and being a commentor in a forum such as this.
Just my two cents…
Freddie consistently makes poor decisions. I, personally feel Freddie should have been fired after last seasons failures. Francona is available for now, he wont be much longer. The Braves also need to blow up this team and get some ball players with heart and desire. Other then Prado, McCann and Uggla, the rest are all trade bait….
How do you measure heart and desire?
By whomever looks most tired at the end of game. Apparently Constanza is good at it. So, is Scott Proctor. Heyward and Prado didn’t score so well though. Fredi said they didn’t look like they were running hard enough. I believe it’s on record, but those 2, along with Bourn and Chipper, said they just want to lose every game.
Can’t blame Freddie for his decisions. The eye problems he is dealing with are certainly far from enviable.
Fredi, on the other hand, is the one making the obvious poor decisions.
As far as heart and desire go, you must not have watched Heyward steal the first game from the Jays. Hustled out a chopper to KJ, stole 3rd, scored on the wild throw. And when he scored, he showed the excitement that some people need to actually see to make them think that a player doesn’t hate the game.
Not to mention all of our awesome young pitchers (plus Huddy), Bourn, Freeman, Simmons…
Ben, could it be because the game was against “the Yankees”?
Bingo…
I, for one, think that Fredi will eventually change his ways. He’s clearly aware of sabr-type strategies, but I think he is scared to use them (he would not get hired again if fired for the second time in five years). His decisions are almost too much by the old-school book…
losing the way they did, and losing to the Yankees (1996 is still painful, having to listen to the broadcasters -both Simpson on TV and Sutton on radio- slobber over Jeter et al.) is painful so the emotions of it all led to some straw/camel/back reactions. However, I suspect many people (see NickB above) have wanted to be shed of Fredi for some time.
“It’s only the manager’s job to put them out there.”
I completely disagree. It is a baseball manager’s job (just like any manager) to put the people that work him / her in a position where they are most likely to be successful. Ultimately, actual success or failure is up to the individual. Gearrin is the perfect example of how Fredi continuously puts players in situations where they are unlikely to succeed. In all of his professional baseball experience, Gearrin has been terrible against left handed hitters and solid against righties. Fredi didn’t just leave him in to face lefty, he BROUGHT him in to have Swisher face him as a lefty. That is just retarded.
Mark B: Peter, were he still running the show, would ban you for saying something so absurd, and rightly so. Beachy, Hanson, Heyward, Minor, Delgado, Teheran, Chipper, Freeman and Bourn are all useless trade fodder and org-depth guys, eh?
seems like this place is getting some of the run off from DOB’s blog……..
We can’t yell for Fredi’s head unless we feel we have a better in-house solution for the rest of the season and I don’t know if we have it. I would prefer a new coach with Managing experience at some level who is young enough to reject current managing rules and goes with the best player for any given situation. But also old enough players can respect him and want to play for him. Perhaps a former player (Chipper, cough, if he had a mind for it). But in order for this to work we would need upper management to strongly support them and the coach be unafraid when everyone around the country is going to criticize because he used his closer in the 7th or 8th for a high leverage situation and then has someone else blow it in the 9th.
I think too many of us out here don’t grasp how bad the Braves are set up financially. We can’t afford to let Fredi go and definetly are not going to be able to bring in Francona. You guys can keep dreaming about that.
I don’t believe that it would help to fire Fredi. Like they say, a fish rots from the head down. As a whole, the Braves have become a mediocre organization. Back in the day when Turner was the owner, he wanted to win it all and he wanted it bad. That influenced his hirings and decisions. I remember one time when Schuerholz said that every time he went to Turner to ask him to allow them to go over budget to sign a player, he always said yes, and they Braves had one of the highest team payrolls in the league. Now they have a mid-market payroll under the lackluster leadership of Liberty Media.
Back then also, Schuerholz was considered to be one of the best GM’s in the game, and Cox one of the best managers. Schuerholz became smug and refused to embrace the changes brought about by the sabermetric movement. Cox became sentimental and too attached to the players he liked. Before this season, on the MLB network show Clubhouse Confidential, they talked about the top five GM’s in the game. Frank Wren wasn’t even mentioned in passing. That right there says something.
Short of new owners, I don’t see how any of this is going to get better, with or without Fredi.
Ownership of the Braves is mostly irrelevant unless they can buy out the TV deal or something. Schuerholz and Wren have a plan, and have been mostly successful in executing that plan. They feel their system of evaluating and developing pitchers is their strength. This has worked wonderfully for them so far, as they can attempt to turn their strength into the asset to acquire team needs.
Front offices always make mistakes. Anthopolus gave away Napoli for Frank Francisco, Friedman keeps playing the prospect extension lottery that will eventually blow up in his face like the Troy Percival deal. Theo Epstien managed to win two world series with the Red Sox and all people talk about are the Lackey and Crawford deals.
Even if the Braves don’t have the best front office, they are competent and have a working plan. Often having a plan and executing it well is better than simply being the best.
I still don’t understand why the Braves didn’t do more of a search for Bobby’s replacement. They basically handed the job to Frediot. To this day, I still don’t understand that. Is it because he was a cheaper option? Nothing about him is distinctive. He’s just a generic baseball manager.
I got the impression that he was Bobby’s choice.
The fact that he was Bobby’s choice doesn’t strike me as a good reason to hire him. Just because Bobby was a good manager, it doesn’t necessarily mean that he knows who else would be a good manager.
I felt they hired him because they were mad at the Marlins (Loria) and felt sorry for Fredi. I always thought Ned Yost would have been the better Bobby protege for his replacement, but there I go letting my feelings rule me too.
I never wanted Fredi as manager in the first place, so the collapse last season plus all the bone headed moves just keeps piling reasons why I do not like him.
The ownership isnt the reason for low payroll. The television contract is the reason….
I don’t buy this argument. It strikes me as an excuse. Liberty Media paid its CEO over $80 million last year. They could certainly find more money to put into the Braves payroll if they so desired, bad TV contract or not.
And then the Braves would lose money. It’s considered bad in business for a unit of a publicly traded company to lose money.
This is exactly the reason. It’s been stated before by this website that Liberty Media is only putting as much money into the Braves as the Braves are making. They’re just looking to break even. I’m not sure how great of a decision that is, but that’s what we know.
Yeah…we’re totally hosed for the next 25-30 years with this TV deal. Our payroll will more than likely stay flat for the next 5-10 years until the fan base revolts from losing. I just don’t see a way that you can continually act like Billy Beane & the Oakland A’s and win. Don’t get me wrong, Billy’s put together some teams that have punched above their weight – but more often than not a middleweight gets the shit beat out of him by a heavyweight.
I’ve said this before (either here or on TC), but I’m so frustrated at DOB and other Braves writers for not digging more into this TV deal issue. I know there was one article back in winter about it, but as a professional law-talker, it has to be one of the worst negotiated deals I’ve ever heard of (even worse considering that it’s with local TV networks, who the Braves should’ve had leverage over given their TBS roots). Anyways, I’m of the strong opinion that there’s some serious sketchiness behind the deal. Ok…TV Deal rant over.
I for one have felt he was a terrible manager form the start as he showed absolutely nothing while manager of the Marlins to prove him to be good. He has shown time and time again to not be good. It is true that I would know not of a manage that I would declare good that is available outside of perhaps Francona, but that doesn’t mean the team cannot or should not look for someone better.
Also the reason why this of all things spurred this wave of Fire Fredi was probably because everyone goddamned person watching the game knew how catastrophically terrible letting Gearrin face Swisher would result. Fredi has managed to luck himself out of a lot of terrible decisions, but not that one.
I see a few of you mentioned Francona, what is his managing style? I have a hard time evaluating other managers because i would have to watch all the games to do so. I didn’t know much about Fredi’s style before he came here. I know Maddon is usually considered one of the best and more open to newer ideas, and I think Acta is similar, open to new ways of managing.
Last night is not the reason for everyone calling for Frediot’s head, its just the culmination of 18 months of utter horseshit from him, there has been a constant theme since the day he arrived of mistake after mistake after bullshit interviews / decisions / lack of accountability for his actions and general mismanagement. Everyone on here thinks Fredi is a muppet, nothing personal against him but what he brings to the Braves. Fredi isn’t clever enough to cover his ass, he is no worse than a lot of managers out there but to win the fans you have to accept when you fuck up and learn from your mistakes, not be so pig headed and arrogant and blame everyone and everything but your own fuck ups. If I could see him changing and things improving then I would take it on the chin and wait, but it won’t and as a paying fan I am just putting my opinion across, I joke about it most of the time but it hurts to see games lost that should be put in the back pocket easily. I also know I am not totally crazy when it has become clear even Joe Simpson and Jim Carrey see the obvious and we see the players struggling to hold their tongues. Rant over till I come in during the 6th with a 2 run lead and get smoked to downtown.
The loss last night was definitely not the result of Fredi’s poor management; although all of ATL’s upper management seems to be knee-jerk reactions…other than having the nerve to realize we had a good team and didn’t need to make off-season acquisitions. I have voiced my criticism, probably more often than I should have, regarding the lack of flexibility or creativity. However, being creative or doing something unusual or unorthodox leaves you open to critics, uhhhh Go MAC!
I am not sure I’d consider anything the Braves Front Office does to be a knee jerk reaction. If anything they are overly conservative with what to do.
Not sure what you’re talking about… I’ve been saying Fire Fredi for about a year now.
My stepson aged 12, is a braves fanatic and plays year round at whatever tournament is going on just asked me why the braves suck so bad with the players they have, I had no answer without resorting to the gutter language I use on here in the company of over 18′s. He had accidentally seen my links to this page and wanted to know why I blame Frediot for the braves losing. He is quite academic and clued up so he is now being trained in SABR and why FG is a total twat.
maybe the general population is finally coming around to the dark side: fire fredi!
A year ago one of the writers here wrote or tweeted that medlen had made his last start for the braves. I hope that ends up true because they are better with him in the bullpen. Fredi is just under-utilizing him and martinez and relying too much on other people. Maybe over reacting to last year’s criticisms of overuse? Hopefully his strategy plays out and he can ride the studes a little harder in the second half. so, i say: fire fredi! (but not yet!)
Also, why no love for TP as the next manager?
^* uh, studs
I liked the part where Fredi PHs with Jack Wilson who fails to get a bunt down and only advanced Simmons because Rodriguez completely missplays the ball and then makes Prado try to bunt Simmons home. Prado hits a lot of ground balls and never lets Bourn even have a chance to steal. If Bourn goes they have to either let him have it or make a rocket throw to prevent simmons from going home. Instead forcing him into a 0-2 count and he grounds in a double play. Managing.
Can “managing!” be a sort of catchphrase for Fredi?
“…well, Constanza has just had a hot hand lately, and I think he really provides a spark for this team. Managing!”
Wonder if Ben thought about this post when he saw Prado square around to bunt on the first pitch with 2 on in the bottom of the 8th…
*sigh* #FreeMVPrado
In Fredi’s time with the Braves name something he has done excellent or outstanding in? I can not think of anything and I don’t hear the team saying much either. Reminds me of when Terry P was the hitting coach and the Braves players went to outside sources when they were in a slump. Give Ryne Sandberg a shot!
I think the team should just hire a monkey. Each time there is a roster decision to be made, show him a picture of the players involved in the decision, and whichever the monkey throws poo at gets to play in that position.
This method is both cheaper, and would generate revenue as it could be shown online at a slight cost.
This was not only funny and literally made me laugh out loud, but I think you might be right…his decisions are as sound as slinging shit at a random player’s picture.
Another loss tonight to the Yanks. With runners on 1st and 3rd in the 8th inning, Prado meekly bounces into a double play. The way things were going, Fredi should have started the runner on 1st, or even squeezed or something. When you are in a losing streak, sometimes you have to try something to switch things up!
Fredi tried to bunt Simmons home. That is largely what caused the problem because he decided that letting the best hitter on the team bunt was better than letting him swing. Prado ended up 0-2 after two pitches never letting Bourn have a chance to run to prevent the double play while also forcing Prado into a terrible position.
No matter what the decision, if it is successful then the manager looks like a genius; if it is not, then the fans of course say he should have done it differently. The problem is, right now it seems that every decision Fredi makes turns to shit. Still can’t put all of the blame on Fredi…the guys between the lines need to step it up. At the end of the day, it comes down to finding a way to get a job done. No matter what the coach wants the player to do, if the player were to get his job done, then everybody is happy.
The good news is, we are better than how we are playing, and bravos will turn it around soon, and everyone will be screaming Fredi for Coach of the Year….(too far?)
Because he sucks???
/oh wait, you’ll delete this comment, so nvm
Is there something wrong with the site? It’s been working funky for me lately. Ben, did you forget to pay the electric bill???
To steal a line from the movie MoneyBall, I’m thinking there are maybe 2 good managers, 27 awful managers, 50 feet of crap, and then Fredi.
The manager for the Rockies takes the cake on bad managerial decisions. I like listening to Keith Law on the Baseball Today podcast and he mentions Fredi as a bad manager, but not nearly in the same light as the bottom 3 managers in the league right now.
Part of Fredi’s advantage is that for the most part the line up sets itself, and the outfield has been fantastic. Batting order wise, most of the hitters are both good and close enough to each other in overall performance to justify most lineups that rotate handedness.
What concerns me is Fredi isn’t simply ignorant, he’s pigheadedly stubborn. When asked if would do anything different in Tuesday’s game, he said “The only thing I would have no different, and again this is 20-20 hindsight, maybe brought in [Christhian] Martinez instead of Gearrin,” Gonzalez said Wednesday. “Other than that no.”
Probably because we’re going through the 2nd long losing streak in a short period of time and it’s glaringly clear that some of these losses can directly be laid at Gonzalez’s feet. There’s still plenty of time in the season left but we saw last year how each game mattered. Making a managerial change now (assuming it was to bring in a quality manager instead of just turning it over to an unknown like Pendleton) could make the difference in winning the division, winning the higher seeded wild card with home field advantage in the one game playoff, or missing the playoffs entirely.
You guys say all of these bad things, but you just wait.
Fredi, Constanza, Durbin, and Livan will all come together to produce the most epic super-villian group that would rival the Avengers.
One day…..
IMO, the issue wasn’t that last night Fredi brought in Venters. that’s a solid decision. The issue is that Fredi brought in Kimbrel in a game we were losing, just a night after NOT bringing in Kimbrel in a game in which the Braves were leading and desperately needed outs. You have the best reliever in the game, you are in a high leverage situation in the game, and you need outs. THAT is when you bring in your best option.
Fredi’s name is on the blogs this morning because it isn’t just the advanced metrics crowd (who have been on Fredi’s decisions since he was with the Marlins) pointing out his sometimes dumbfounding moves. Casual fans are now noticing it.
When it was just us nerds saying things, nobody cared.
Man, I want to fire Fredi every day. I just hate that guy. But, what do I know? I’m typing this from my parent’s basement.
I like that I was shouted down for wanting to fire Fredi last May. Finally everyone has cracked.
Can we start the #FireFredi trend again?
Couple of things from last night’s game I wanted to address and see what others thought.
1. Why use Jack Wilson in the 8th to bunt? Why not just use a starting pitcher to hit there if all you’re asking him to do is bunt? I remember Bobby Cox used to do that all the time with his pitchers if all he was looking for was a bunt. That way you don’t waste a position player while still using someone who’s used to bunting.
2. The bunt attempt by Prado in the 8th. Here’s what I thought they should have done. They should have told Bourn to try to steal 2nd. If the Yankees throw to 2nd, have Simmons run home. Simmons should be fast enough to make it to home if they throw to 2nd. If they don’t throw to 2nd, now you’ve got runners at 2nd and 3rd and no more double play chance.
Just my opinion on those two plays.
From a quantitative analysis standpoint, Friday is the best day to fire someone, so I’m not sure why all the uproar.
The braves turn a profit for Liberty they don’t just break even, at least according to Forbes. Their tv deal at the time was considered very good, there is 20 years left of it. I would assume that the deal is around 40 million which would have been huge money 5 years ago when it was signed. Of course when the Angels are getting 150 million dollars a year it doesn’t look that good. Maybe they can find a way to redo the contract in a few years because the Braves as a tv property would not be as valuable if the team is horrible and can’t compete. But if the braves could just maintain a 100 million payroll like they used to that would be a huge deal.
I’m not all that knowledgeable about baseball. I don’t really know who should face who, what the splits are, etc. I like the idea of applying statistical analysis to baseball but am too lazy to try and thoroughly understand it. I watch the games and I like it when the Braves don’t make outs while pitching well and have more runs at the end.
I mostly have wished Fredi wasn’t the manager because of how stupid he looks EVERY time the camera finds him. But I really wanted him fired after he brought in Livan in the Toronto game. I’m done, it’s just infuriating and it makes me notice everything just a bit more sharply, whether the gearrin move, bringing in wilson to bunt, etc. Ugh.
The argument that Bobby wouldn’t have done anything different doesn’t hold water. Who cares if Bobby wouldn’t have done anything different? The point isn’t that the Braves took a step down in management (although they certainly did). The point is that Fredi is incompetent.
I can’t believe this team right now is number three in the National League in runs scored!
What if Heyward hits a gapper with two outs in the ninth? Does Chipper score from first? How Fredi neglected to pinch run for Chipper in that situation is mind-boggling. Game situation aside, avoiding first-to-home sprints is imperative to keeping Chipper healthy. No, this didn’t end up burning us, but these types of mental gaffes are what get so many of us frustrated with this slow-thinking manager.
Two things. First, I’m adding this to, I think, the best group of comments ever posted about Gonzales. Ownership will be worse managers than Gonzales if they don’t read these comments and take heed. If even those who only know a little about baseball, like me, are starting to see and understand the problems, it’s clearly a wake-up call. Second, Bobby explained his decisions, and he explained well more often than not. Gonzales defends his decisions, and he defends poorly more often than not. I’m considering hitting the mute button when Gonzales answers questions after the games, because I don’t think I learn more about baseball and Braves baseball when I listen to Gonzales.
You’re *considering* hitting mute. WOW, you’re a lot more patient than I am.