June 26th CACast
June 27, 2012 at 12:48 am by Franklin Rabon under Atlanta Braves
Ben and I discuss the back of the rotation woes, trading for Greinke, O’Derbrel, and Simmons and Heyward’s hot streaks:
CAC Podcast
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I enjoyed the Podcast. The price tag that you mentioned for Greinke seems like we would regret that a year or two from now. It does seem realistic though. Hopefully Minor and Delgado can step it up so we won’t have to make that a reality.
That’s the thing though, “hoping” that Minor and/or Delgado can work through their youthful woes has already cost us 2 games in that experiment. Basically, both Minor and Delgado pitched quite well after Medlen was sent down and so we stuck with them. Then, their next starts were horrible. I don’t think we can survive going through the year like that.
I’m not necessarily saying that they need to pull the trigger on Greinke, but that they just need to make a decision about the staff as a whole and stick with it. The waffling back and forth is costing us.
If the pricetag is high for Greinke, I say stay away. There are a lot of pitchers coming on the market who could help the back end of the rotation. They’ll be had for a lot less than the Brewers will be asking for ZG.
I see where you are going but together Delgado and Minor have actually combined to be slightly above a replacement level player (fWAR). Interested to see how you attributed them costing us 2 games by themselves. Agree that they are not performing up to expectations; but when both their youth and upside are taken into consideration I think giving them another couple of starts as the Podcast suggested wouldn’t be the worst of ideas.
Well basically, there was a decision made after their great starts to let them continue pitching rather than sending one down or to the bullpen and letting Medlen start. Both of their next starts resulted in poor outings (especially for Delgado) and losses for the Braves.
Of course, that might have happened regardless of who was starting. But, the fact of the matter is, that according to the plan of stretching out Medlen’s arm, at least one of them shouldn’t have been starting that next game.
It really gets old when Braves fans want to get rid of our really underperforming “old” pitchers. Mike Minor is over the hill at 24 and should be given up on. Delgado is even worse, his career is over and he is 22. Phew… Bring in any one else please…. Guys these are growing pains, and are supposed to happen with such a young set of arms. I would love to see more consistency from both guys, but it just doesn’t always work out that way for young pitchers. Yes, Minor can drive you crazy sometimes, but he has great stuff and will come around. Randall Delgado has amazing stuff, and will settle down as he continues to pitch in the bigs. This isn’t only on this posting, great podcast btw, but for several of the others. Please give me a good reason to cut bait on our prospects that haven’t even hit their prime yet, or are even close…
I agree with your premise, but to that notion, since when is any one part greater than the whole?
It’s not that I, personally, am picketing for their removal, but I ask you… why should we keep them just because they are still “young?” If there is a better option available that would benefit the team, isn’t that was is supposed to be done?
Not trying to argue or anything, just curious of your thoughts on that.
I don’t believe in keeping them because solely on the notion that they are young. I believe in keeping them because of their high celing and low floor. Both have shown that they can pitch at a very high major league level, but have yet to do it consistently. With more seasoning in the majors that consistency SHOULD come. Obviously we will never know if more seasoning will help, but it is never a good thing to give up and trade a prospect because they started their career off rough. The only better option I see is Greinke, and for value/age/prospects needed to buy him, I just think we are a better fit with what we have.
I do agree, if it was soley on the basis of age, that is crazy. These guys are not just young though, they are good. Not once did I think you were just arguing for the sake of arguing,
Thanks for the thoughts… What would you say their individual ceilings would be? Maybe both a #2 or #3?
What about Greinke… would he make a run at our staff’s “ace?”
I could be wrong, but I’m thinking we’re only talking about parting ways with one of them in a trade and not both, right? Big “ifs” obviously, but I could honestly accept that IF Greinke pitches well, IF J.J. returns to somewhat good form for a long term, and IF whichever pitcher stays works out the youthful problems.
Yeah, and I was calling for the Braves to get rid of Glavine early in his career when he was 9-23 with an ERA over 5.00 …..but would they listen …NOOOOO!!!!!!!
Good work.
It costs good players to get good players. I think both are good and will continue to get better. There is a big cloud of uncertainty around all of the pitchers the Braves currently have, so acquiring a Greinke and giving up good pieces isn’t outlandish.
Yeah, I mean their youth and cost control is an asset if the Braves keep them, but it’s also an asset if the Braves decide to ship them. And the nice thing about service time is that it’s verifiable, so to the extent that it’s an asset for Minor and Delgado, it should them more attractive to everyone. Meanwhile, it’s the Braves coaching staff and talent evaluators who have had by far the most ability to evaluate the long-term potential of these guys, so we should trust that if one of them is shipped out, it’s more likely that the Braves are putting one over on their trade partner.
I’m a huge Greinke fan, but from my perspective, it’d be in the Braves best interest to avoid overpaying for him. I’d be more interested in targets where there is a buy-low option with high upside. Recently heard they were scouting F. Liriano, and although he’s maybe not ideal, a player like him would intrigue me.
KimbrEL, huh? Ooh la la.
LOL I thought that pronunciation was funny, as well.
Yeah I’d be curious to know the source of this pronunciation as well. As far as I know, Jim Powell is very accurate in his pronunciation (typically announcers are given a pronunciation guide) and I’ve never heard him emphasize the “el” the way Duronio was.
How bout Minor Pastonicky and Adam Russell to the Twins for Liriano and Casilla or Minor and Pastornicky for Garza or Minor Pastornicky and Diaz for Reed Johnson and Dempster? Do any of these sound like a possibly happen?
Just my opinion, but I just looked at Garza’s splits this season and unless I’m looking at things wrong, I don’t see how he would be a legitimate upgrade for what we have other than experience. I’d say the only one of those I’d pull the trigger on would be Liriano. Although, I’m still holding out hope that we go after Greinke or stand pat.
What are the chances they trade for Liriano? also I really like that song at the end, who’s that?
The name of the band is Farewell Milwaukee. The song is Liar.
This is the first podcast I’ve listened to start to finish, and I really enjoyed it. I was especially interested to hear the takes on Venters’ more recent struggles and how they might be linked to Minor’s. I’ll definitely be listening in the future.
To address a few comments. I don’t think any of us, nor anybody in the organization want to ‘cut bait’ on any of our young pitchers. However, we have to ask ourselves, are they the best bets for helping us win, RIGHT NOW. and I think that’s a clear ‘no’ when it comes to having 2 of them in a rotation, at the same time, along with Jair Jurrjens and no ace.
Right now, 3 of our 5 rotation spots are taken by guys who have struggled more often than not this year. I just don’t think we can make the playoffs with that. We need a rotation upgrade, and preferably at the very top. Greinke, while perhaps expensive provides that. He not only becomes the best pitcher we’ve had since Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine, he also allows us to put one of the ‘other guys’ out of the rotation. He’s essentially like trading for two guys in one in a way. You get an Ace and a replacement for one of your struggling pitchers.
However, he is going to cost. If Minor, Delgado and Teheran really were worthless, they wouldn’t bring back Greinke.
Is it too much? Very possibly. We’d only be getting Greinke for half a season, and I think even if we extended him, we’d be paying more or less market rate, as Greinke doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy willing to take a discount to get a deal done. But, is it overpaying if we make the playoffs? If we go deep in the playoffs? Win the world series? Without a major upgrade to the rotation, I think it’s fairly questionable whether or not we make the playoffs this year.
I wish I can remember the analyst that I heard say this, but it basically sums up the point you’re making.
It’s not that Minor and Delgado are that bad individually. Either one of them in the rotation by themselves adds quality to the staff. However, having them BOTH in the same rotation does not equal a true playoff contending rotation.
I’ll be more specific… I like Delgado fine as a fifth starter. A 4.14 FIP in 75 IP is perfectly respectable. He has good starts and bad starts, and you can probably count on winning about one third of the games he starts with the lineup the Braves have.
Minor, I think, is just unacceptable. He needs to be pitching at AAA. So while having Delgado in the rotation sort of exacerbates the overall situation, Minor is the real problem here.
Matt Cain’s contract probably put the kabosh on any chance of the borke braves extending Greinke.