Dempster Updates
July 24, 2012 at 10:52 am by Franklin Rabon under Atlanta Braves
*UPDATE 6:05 PM* Cubs are still believed to be in discussions with Braves, and prefer any offer they would likely make to what the Dodgers would likely offer, but due to Dempster’s stance, are now mostly talking with Dodgers. Braves aren’t waiting, but also aren’t totally shutting the Cubs out either. If the Cubs come back to them with Dempster’s absolute acceptance of a trade to them, they would be open to a trade. But there couldn’t be another mishap in any way, shape or form. The Cubs front office would have to be 100% sure this time. The Braves are absolutely talking with other teams now though, and thus the Cubs would have to call the Braves and ask if they would still do a deal, since the Braves may engage in negotiations at any time.
Any potential deal with the Cubs would still likely involve Delgado, but the Braves may also want a bit more now in return.
A Dempster deal is still unlikely, but people seem to have calmed down a bit on the Braves end, after an initial outrage after hearing that Dempster planned to make next start and ‘could take a week to decide.’
*UPDATE 5:36 PM* The Braves have heard from Chicago radio that Dempster said he could take “up to a week to decide”, and since they cannot talk with Dempster directly, and because the Cubs front office has been unable or unwilling to give them any better information on this front, the Braves are believed to be taking Dempster’s ‘threats’ seriously, and have all but moved on.
Astounding how quickly this all unravelled. Personally I was fairly ambivalent about the trade, but Wren and the Cubs front office have to be really frustrated. In a situation where hours of time can be worth millions of dollars, at least three whole days have been wasted.
If I had to put a number on the chances of Dempster to Atlanta, I’d go with 15% right now. It’s still possible, but would take a lot of things to go just right. The Braves cannot sit there waiting at this point, with no end to Dempster’s decision in sight. Dempster also said he’d make his next start for the Cubs. Obviously that wouldn’t be Dempster’s decision on whether or not he makes his next start, but it does indicate his state of mind with regards to potential trades.
*UPDATE 4:28 PM* According to a source, the offer of Delgado is no longer a current offer, and if the Cubs want back in, they would have to renegotiate. The Braves are again calling other teams about starting pitching, and Dempster is no longer seen as their top priority.
The source said the deal “isn’t 100% dead, but it would have to be re-incarnated.” Delgado wouldn’t necessarily be off the table, but the terms for the deal “almost certainly wouldn’t be the same after all this. If for no other reason than it has become clear that the Braves offer was lapping everybody else’s offer, and the Cubs’ bargaining position is much weaker than it was two days ago.”
The Braves seem to have grown frustrated with the Cubs’ inability to give any idea of how long it will take Dempster to decide. It was said that “the Cubs front office and Dempster seem to not even be reading the same book, let alone on the same page.” The Braves simply could not afford to remain in limbo while other teams continued to target their fall back plans.
*UPDATE 2:53 PM* Indications I’m getting are that Braves offer will be pulled at the end of the day today (or sooner), but that doesn’t mean trade talks would be over. It would simply mean that the terms would have to be reworked in such a scenario, and it would be the Cubs asking the Braves this time, not the reverse. While Delgado might be still included in such a package if the deal must be reworked, it wouldn’t be a guarantee, and it would no longer be on open offer for the Cubs/Depmster to accept at any time (as it is right this now).
Additionally, the Cubs are losing leverage by the minute, as both the Dodgers and Braves seem less and less inclined to give up major talent as the deadline approaches. Part of the premium price the Braves were willing to pay for Dempster was the certainty of having a guy with many days left before the end of the deadline. That has obviously vanished. It seems as if the Braves are going to give the Cubs and Dempster today to get this worked out before they start making phone calls again. But even if they aren’t going to make calls on other players today, they also probably wouldn’t turn down calls made to them. And if the right guy was offered by another GM, the deal might even be gone today.
At this point I’d rate the likelihood of Dempster to the Braves at 45%. Dempster may realize that the Dodgers don’t particularly want him, and that it may likely be the Braves or the Cubs, if he doesn’t make up his mind soon. The Dodgers are likely hoping that a desperate Theo allows a sweetheart deal to fall in their laps netting them Dempster for pennies on the dollar.
*UPDATE 2:05 PM* Indications are that the Cubs believed that Dempster would unconditionally accept a trade to either of his top two teams (Braves or Dodgers), whereas Dempster believed he had indicated he would only unconditionally accept a trade to the Dodgers, and that a trade to the Braves wouldn’t be accepted unless a trade to the Dodgers was completely impossible. It is possible that this was simply a miscommunication between Dempster and the Cubs, but how such a massive communication failure could have happened on such a drastically important issue is mind boggling. Either way, Theo looks really bad here (he either overstated Dempster’s agreement to the trade to the Braves or he didn’t properly communicate with his player) or Dempster lied/changed his mind.
I still believe this deal is more likely than not to be completed, but I’d say it’s gone from 95% likely last night, to maybe 60% likely, and quickly deteriorating by the hour. If this goes on for more than a day, the Braves will likely move on, and if the Cubs want to approach them again, a deal would have to start nearly from scratch, as leverage positions are quickly changing.
*UPDATE 1:34 PM* According to Ken Rosenthal Dempster is holding the trade up because he would prefer the Cubs to continue to try to work out a deal to the Dodgers. If this is the case, there is a high probability that both the Dodgers and Braves will move on from Dempster and he will end up staying with the Cubs. The Dodgers don’t seem willing to give up the pieces that the Cubs want in return, and the Braves seem unwilling to wait more than a couple of additional days on Dempster.
Theo Epstein could come out of this looking really, really bad. All indications are he gave the Braves the impression that this was a done deal, and now there seems to be a very real chance that he ends up keeping Dempster, not getting a major piece to rebuild his team in Delgado, and making Frank Wren severely question him in future dealings. Every hour that goes by with Dempster not approving the deal is an hour closer to the Braves being forced to pursue other options and thus take the deal off the table.
*UPDATE 12:43 PM* Dempster has tweeted via his official Ryan Dempster Foundation handle: “Nothing official to report. You will be the 1st to know. Thnx to all my fans for the support #RD46″ So, he apparently still hasn’t made a decision or is waiting until the 24 hour moratorium period is over to officially announce it. Though the latter possibility seems unlikely.
1) The Braves were definitely given the impression that Dempster had given pre-approval on the deal, it’s unclear whether the Cubs overplayed their hand on the issue or if Dempster backtracked. It is not believed that a contact extension is part of the hold up. Dempster is just taking his time to figure it out.
2) While the Braves are extremely frustrated by this development, they wouldn’t take the deal off the table out of spite. They believe this is the best deal they are likely to get for a starting pitcher.
3) However, they would pull the deal if it’s not agreed to within the next day or so, as it would likely cost them a Dempster start, and they need to move on, because they feel that they have to acquire a SP upgrade and can’t afford to be shut out.
4) The Brewers are sticking hard to demanding a package that would be along the lines of Teheran, Delgado and one of our best offensive prospects (ie Salcedo or the like). They are said to absolutely view any deal that wouldn’t involve Teheran plus another major prospect and minor prospect as a complete no go. There is some thought that they could back off these demands as the deadline nears, but the Braves don’t think they have the luxury of waiting that long and then possibly having the Brewers keep Greinke.
5) Part of the issue is that the Braves believe they absolutely must make a trade for a SP, part is that the Braves want to make a couple more moves. Wren would like to get a bench bat and a reliever, and he can’t even begin to work on those deals until a SP is delivered, as obviously he doesn’t know what pieces he will even have until such a time.
6) While extremely frustrated, the Braves do believe that Dempster will accept today, and the trade would then process 24 hours from the moment his acceptance is given to MLB (24 hour moratorium on trades involving 10/5 players). If he agrees early enough in the day, he could even pitch tomorrow.
7) Like has been said, it almost certainly is Delgado, and it’s unlikely the hold up has changed that. It is unclear whether the Cubs are sending a lot of cash or taking Jair Jurrjens plus sending less cash. The deal is believed to be completely cash neutral, ie both teams payroll will be nearly exactly the same after the deal as before.
In the interests of full disclosure, this/these source(s) has/have been pretty reliable, but has/have obviously never given me info anywhere close to this level before, so take it FWIW. At this point I would call it informed speculation, though I also wouldn’t be surprised if everything he/she/they said turned out true.
Follow me on Twitter for up to the minute updates as I get anything else: @fjrabon
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Franklin, tell DOB thanks for the info
haha, I’m pretty sure I’d be one of the last people DOB would talk to.
Oh, I just assumed it was from DOB because he seems to really stay on top of shit!
/sarc
This site has been more illuminating, and more frequently updated, on this subject than MLBTR has. Thanks a ton for the hard work.
It sure has. I wonder if we set a record for comments on the previous blog entry. Think it was up to 170 comments last I checked.
Sincerely appreciate all the updates and patience you are delivering through all the trade rumors yesterday and today Franklin. And, I’m sure we all understand not wanting to divulge source names and I hope no one would ever actually ask you to do so.
Just as we all have speculated, the Dempster issue was more about his overall shock at not being notified than anything. Once he’s over that, surely he’ll make an informed decision and everyone can move on from there. Personally, I’m still holding out hope that he agrees as I think he’s the best on the market for what we have to offer.
As far as Greinke, if they are asking that much for him, I would imagine no team will pull the trigger. That means they are basically asking for 2 ML ready starters and an A to B prospect bat. Guess we’ll see how serious they are about moving him as the deadline approaches.
And please, for the love of god, take J.J. away from us Cubs!!!
If I had to choose between this Dempster trade and the one the Brewers have in mind for Greinke, I make the Dempster deal every time. That’s too much for Greinke without any guarantee he’d be willing to sign an extension.
and really, the extension issue shouldn’t even come into play, because they could just as easily sign him in the offseason anyway. He’d actually need to take less money in an extension than he would in free agency for the extension to actually have any value in the trade analysis.
Look at the Uggla trade. His willingness to take an extension actually turned out to be a negative value aspect to the trade, haha.
I have been railed multiple times pointing out the Uggla extension as a negative.
Trading Infante and Dunn for Uggla was a decent trade (we did already have Prado), but signing him to one of the largest contracts ever given to a 2B was a mistake.
I felt the same way. At the time I loved the trade for Uggla but I did not love the long contract extension. The Marlins were right in not wanting to give him a 5 year deal.
also, the comp pick stripping that MLB instituted in the last CBA really is straining a deal like that. Because essentially the Brewers are demanding one player that is along the lines of what they would get as the comp pick in terms of value, plus the key pieces. ie Salcedo is essentially worth a comp pick or thereabouts, and then they want the ‘normal’ stuff on top of that.
Previously that would have been less of an issue, because the Braves know that that level of value would be transferring to them, as they would get the comp pick. However, now it’s just a pure loss of value. I really think MLB didn’t fully think this rule change through, or they were flat out actually trying to discourage trades of players in the last year of their contracts, which seems counter productive, given the amount of interest the trade deadline generates amongst fans.
Man.. great work on this story guys! I’d have to agree with others though, that’s way too much to give up for Greinke and if all goes well maybe we’ll see Dempster starting tomorrow.
I believe that they should get Greinke
Let some other insane GM trade for Greinke and then the Braves can fire an offer to him when he hits FA after the season.
Yes Please
This is the first time that I have seen that the Brewers are demanding Teheran AND Delgado plus another prospect for Greinke. That deal I wouldn’t do, but Teheran plus a Top15 prospect would be enticing.
that was their initial demand, and they haven’t backed off on it yet, from what I’m hearing. Though Teheran was indicated to be a rock solid requirement for a deal, while Delgado could be Minor as well.
ie They seem to have indicated that Teheran is a rock solid requirement, and we’d have to give up about the level of value of Delgado plus Salcedo. Essentially they want the value of Teheran, a major prospect and the value of the comp pick they’re losing by trading him.
Some believe that they just don’t want to trade Greinke, but threw out an outrageous demand, just in case somebody got desperate and bit.
FWIW, other teams beat reporters are also saying that teams have said that the Brewers demands for Greinke, if they were willing to talk at all, were absurd.
They should trade for both Greinke and Dempster even if we have to give away future prospects. We have a chance this year and we should take advantage of this opportunity!
It seems doubtful this would even be possible if the Braves wanted to, which they don’t. Both teams seem to want Delgado.
Well, if one sees Delgado and Minor as interchangable, you could send Delgado/Minor to the Cubs, and send the other one of the pair plus Teheran and Salcedo to Milwaukee. That seems like a lot to give up for a shot at a crapshoot, though, especially since the Braves would be doing good to have one of those guys after this year.
It’d give you a rotation of Greinke, Dempster, Hudson, Sheets and Hanson this year, but the only guys you’d have under contract next season would be Hudson (I’d have to assume they would pick up his option in this scenario) and Hanson. That would add rebuilding the rotation to an already busy offseason upcoming for Wren.
Oops, forgot about Beachy, although he wouldn’t be back until partway through the season. We could start the season with Medlen in the rotation, which would give us 3/5 of a rotation already under contract, although we’d probably pick up a Livan-type pitcher just in case someone got hurt, because I don’t know who would be ready to come up from the minors in such a situation.
Yeah I have absolutely no idea how they could pull that one off. Nice thought though.
Another point to make with regards to Greinke is this: If the Brewers were really going to trade him, they would absolutely be blowing the Braves phone up once this deal was leaked. If they lose the Braves as a potential trading partner, their leverage drops substantially. As dangling that the Braves could part with Teheran was huge for them leverage wise in their dealings with other teams.
There has been no indication that the Brewers have even contacted the Braves in a couple of days. (though this obviously could be going on and nobody knows about it, but I view that as unlikely)
To my mind, this is further indication that Greinke isn’t going anywhere.
Until Free Agency… then, bye bye Milwaukee :)
Dempster sure looks like the better value. I hope we get him.
Greinke is a good pitcher but if you’re playing for championships, I’m not altogether sure he’s a guy you want to build your pitching staff around.
I had a concern about that as well. He’s already said that prefers to pitch in smaller market areas which basically means he shy of being in the limelight. But, in the playoffs, isn’t every game played basically in the limelight because of national broadcasting?
Look at last years playoffs-Greinke and Marcum absolutely choked for the Brew crew. And that was in relatively low-pressure Milwaukee. Sorry, As of right now, Id take Dempster over Greinke.
Just want to reiterate the sentiment already expressed that this site has become truly excellent in the post-Peter era. Especially in terms of blogWAR. Who else could I read?
Personally, I am ok with giving up Delgado for Dempster, but I’m definitely not ok with giving up Tehran and other big pieces for Greinke. For some reason, I just have a gut feeling that we’re going to grab Greinke in the FA market at season’s end anyway so why trade away other big pieces to make it happen when we can trade for Dempster and make a long run in the postseason with those starters alone. Looking ahead though…if we do get Dempster and re-sign him and then grab Greinke too, our rotation would be sick! Hudson, Greinke, Dempster, Hanson, and Minor (or Tehran). Wow!
LOL… it’s sad, but shows just how formidable our rotation would be if that happened, seeing that you totally forgot about Sheets ;)
Dont forget Beachy
Jesus god… even I forgot Beachy.
I mean, Greinke/Hudson/Beachy/Dempster/Sheets/Hanson/Minor — Wow!!
But, in reality, if we were to pick up Greinke in FA, I would have to believe that Hudson and Bourn would fall victim. Not sure I’d be happy with that.
Greinke is not worth Hudson and Bourn. We haven’t had a true Center Fielder in a while, and we need to keep him. HUdson and Bourn are both All-Stars and it’s not worth losing them for Greinke imho.
A LOT of ‘IFs” – but if Sheets really does turn out to be the pitcher he always was, and Dempster signs an extension, you wouldn’t need to fo after Greinke in the off-season…take that money and lock up Bourn.
Oh I’m not saying at all they Greinke is worth Hudson and Bourn. I’m just saying that signing him would decrease our ability to buy Hudson’s 8MM option and re-sign Bourn. I would rather not go that route as it will definitely firm up our rotation, but it would actually create more holes than we already have in the outfield.
We *may* sign Greinke OR Dempster in FA, but we’re definitely not going to sign both…the total cost would be way too high. Also, I’d think Beachy won’t be available for the first half of next season, but correct me if I’m wrong.
As for Bourn, I love the guy and think he’s been our MVP this season, but I hope we don’t pursue him. Why? Because the asking price for him is going to be astronomical…if we were to throw down that kind of money on Bourn, it would seriously tie our financial hands in the future and prevent other signings that need to be done (Prado, McCann, etc).
Bourn’s great, but Boras will make sure he gets a price tag that is overvalued, trust me, and there are a plethora of other young OF’s out there that would provide much more value, whether signed as FA’s or acquired via trade (PLEASE…CAIN!!!), so it makes financial sense to let Bourn go.
There’s no doubt that the Boras contingency is going to cause trouble. But there is also argument to be made that Hanson is also a Boras client and so we may not re-sign him. Don’t have to worry with the money for him in that case. And, that Mac will likely test FA, so we wouldn’t have to worry with that money either.
Bourn is definitely going to cost quite a bit and I’ll agree that signing him is probably unlikely with our budget constraints. But, I think he’s worth, at least, doing the numbers and making him an offer.
I love Michael Bourn. But every time I watch Constanza play, I can’t help but think the Braves already have their future CF ready to go for next season.
^ Except Constanza is only just over 8 months younger than Bourn. Re-signing Bourn is a long shot, but to expect Constanza to be a long-term solution isn’t something I’m comfortable with.
Expecting Constanza to do anything worthwhile on a daily basis for the ML team is more than I’m comfortable with.
I don’t think anyone’s comfortable with Costanza as a long term OF option. However, there will be a lot more quality OF’s available to pick up @ a reasonable price than there will be 3B’s or catchers…let’s spend money where the potential hole would be the hardest to fill, and deal last with the positions where the market is over-stocked with talent.
Don’t forget about Ben Sheets. Yes, he only has 2 starts, but he has had the kind of quality that got him into several All Star games. Also, Beachy will be back and possibly better. Personally, I think Hudson, Dempster, Sheets, Beachy, and Hanson would be fine. We only need one of Dempster and Greinke.
I will be completely surprised if Sheets lasts throughout this season. In fact, both he and Hanson are big injury risks.
This is the best and most logical update I have seen on the entire situation. Thanks.
Fuck thats a bigger haul then they got Greinke for.
yeah, pretty much every team that has talked to them about Greinke has been said to come away calling their demands “wildly unrealistic” and not even being a valid starting point for discussions.
which leads me to believe that perhaps they don’t really want to trade Greinke and just were hoping someone would be desperate. Considering the Braves’ other needs, the Dempster deal makes much more sense if it goes through later today. we desperately need some bench and RH relief help. Durbin/Martinez are just consistently inconsistent.
I’m still a little terrified that 70% of the voters in the poll have more confidence in a guy that had not pitched in 2 years than Minor.
Nah… that just comes from us having flashback images of Sheets striking out 18 Braves in one game, his experience over Minor, and the feel good story behind it. I think those are qualities that defend the 70% total.
In reality, the more alarming problem is that 206 people (only 1% less than Minor) have more confidence in J.J. than Sheets or Minor.
The guy has a great track record. Ay doubts about him should be almost gone after his 2 starts. I was still hesitant after his first start thinking it could have been a fluke, but this guy is gold.
I picked Minor due to where they are in their cycle. Sheets could still be very solid for a couple of years, and I’m a fan of his, but he is older (34, right?) and has a very extensive and recent injury history. Minor is young and has shown he can already stick at the back end of the rotation with real potential to move up to a number 2 type.
Sheets could hang as a number 2 starter, but his ace days are behind him, and he could just as easily turn into number 2, if you know what I mean.
On the other hand, JJ has gone the route of KK and is stinkin’ like some number 2, so 200+ people must be crazy, or his mom found a way to vote more than once…
Don’t do it Wren! No Dumpster!
Completely off-Braves topic here, but does it make anyone else besides me absolutely nauseous to think of Ichiro in a Yankees uniform??
Yes, I’m totally with you on this one.
Yeah, I’m with you on that. I can’t blame Ichiro for wanting out of Seattle, they’re going nowhere, but did it have to be the Yankees? Ick.
I’d like to hear Dempster’s explanation of how the news that a trade had been agreed upon “blindsided” him. That makes no sense, considering he has been discussed as a top trade target for over a month now. It seems as though the only person in the world who was surprised that a deal was made is Dempster himself. How is that possible? Is something more going on here that we don’t know? My guess is that something caused Demspter to backtrack on his supposed “pre-approval.” That makes more sense than being “blindsided.”
By blindsided, I think he meant that they agreed to the terms of a deal without first asking him if he would accept a trade to the Braves first. Being that he has 10-5 rights, that does seem like it would be proper etiquette by the Cubs to ask him first before engaging in serious talks.
yeah, Dempster being ‘blindsided’ by this deal is pretty hilarious.
Theo: “hey demp, would you pre approve a trade to the Dodgers or Braves”
Demp: “Yeah dude, no biggie, I like those places”
a few days pass
Demp’s cell phone: “yo Demp, you been traded to the Braves?”
Demp: “no way cell phone, I’m totally blindsided by this. Completely unexpected. I need to mull this over a few days.”
Though, again, I guess it’s possible the Cubs didn’t actually 100% have his approval.
Personally, I think what happened here is just he’s covering his butt. If the trade isn’t official, he doesn’t want to say “Yeah, I’ve been traded.” I think he knows it’s a possibility and he won’t confirm it until he’s been called in to approve it. That’s just what I get out of reading his responses and the whole situation.
Well, that might make sense, except the trade would already be done if he would just give his approval. All indications are he has been asked for, and is yet to give, his approval.
Yeah, this gives me pause just a little bit about exactly what kind of a baby we might be acquiring.
I STILL think Liriano should be the target if he is available. It is my opinion that he will outpitch both Dempster and Greinke for the rest of the season. Count me among those that think Delgado is WAAAAAAY too much to pay for 9-10 Dempster starts.
So, in essence, you are basically saying that Delgado isn’t too much to pay for 9-10 starts of Liriano then? Because he is also a FA in 2013, along with Dempster and Greinke.
I think he is saying that Liriano can be had for less.
Well yeah. Lesser quality should be had for lesser talent.
Maybe so, but not for less than Delgado. Unfortunately, we don’t have less than Delgado. People need to accept that he is the piece we’re moving.
Bert Blyleven surrendered 50 bombs in 1986, and that inauspicious amount stands as the single season record. If poor JJ ends up in the Cubs’ rotation next year, that record is in danger.
I would rather have Delgado for 4-5 years than Dempster for two months.
Me too. I really hate the thought of Delgado pitching the next several years with the Cubs while the Braves are left with nothing.
I know this may come off as heretical, but is there any way that Teheran is Jose Capellan2.0? Can someone with insight into this kind of thing explain to me why it’s absurd to compare the two?
I just looked Capellan up, and remembered that we traded him for Dan Kolb. Hahahaha.
I’ve had similar fears, but I have no basis to back that up other than my gut.
ESPN’s Rumor Central (I know) has listed the Braves as a team interested in Chase Headley. Has anyone heard anything more on that? Or is it just typical ESPN BS?
I had asked awhile back if we would have interest in Headley. I doubt it’s a legitimate rumor more than it’s just an idea being bounced around. I don’t know that we’ll have the resource to acquire him.
As an in-season move, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. If the price is right, I could see us making the move in the off-season and allowing Headley to take over third, keeping Prado in left field.
Wouldn’t that be in the best interest of the Braves? Even if Teheran is the price, and likely Delgado too, Martin Prado suddenly goes from a 3B market to a corner OF market, which is nowhere near as demanding and could save a couple million. Also, Headley has a very manageable contract through 2014. This instantly goes on my list of ‘wishful thinking’ trades. But it would be cool to explore.
Could someone please explain how the acquisition of Dempster is going to put the Braves over the top? According to the projections I’ve seen, he figures to give them two more wins this season over what Delgado would figure to give them. As of today, they are five games behind the Nationals in the loss column. And yes, Wren will try to trade for a bench bat and a reliever after doing a deal for Dempster, but how is he going to acquire anyone that can really help? Other than Teheran, I don’t see anyone in the farm system that another team is really anxious to get.
It’s not a matter of value over Delgado, but value over Jurjjens.
Well said…
But if we send JJ back down and Delgado up then it is a matter of Dempster over JJ against Delgado over JJ. Which is 2 wins. Of course that would require the front office to send JJ back down.
Another side note… Franklin, I love your work, but after scrolling through your pictures on @fjrabon, I have discovered that you may have a slight drinking problem ;)
Hot chicks though!
Speaking of off topic, I wonder if this trade would still stand….
Question #6
http://capitolavenueclub.com/?p=6626
Dempster is pissing me off. Do you want to pitch for the worst team in baseball and test FA afterwards, or do you want to pitch for a contender for a couple months then test FA afterwards? If he turns it down his value just went way down. Annoying. By the way, great work, I don’t even have to go over to MLBTR.
It doesn’t appear to be either of those, actually. Sounds like he wants to pitch for the Dodgers.
Yeah, so do I. Dempster, like me, isn’t worth what he thinks the Dodgers should give up to get him.
No Plans for Upton this year. maybe next year…. Chipper and Lowe’s contracts are gone. Maye we could get Upton, move Prado to third. That would be nice.
So if this trade goes through… what are the chances Dempster gets boo’ed when he takes the mound? He’s already played the Braves’ organization for a bunch of fools.
Doubtful
The Braves should start looking elsewhere for a starter, if they haven’t already.
Yeah at this point as a braves fan you can’t like the idea of Dempster not wanting to play for your team. I would hate for a guy like that to come over and ruin some of the chemistry this team has built, if the bow-tie bandit is right as Frank Wren I would back off. Go after Shields and if that can’t happen go after Liriano. It not only makes the Cubs FO look bad but how bad does it make the Braves look that a guy on the worst team in baseball isn’t happy about being traded to a contender?
If you want Liriano Might as well keep what we have his inconsistency in the rotation by way of Delgado and Minor. Liriano will not make that go away. Can he K a lot of people? Sure but his arm is not as electric as it was when he came up.
Braves shouldnt trade for Dempster…This is a clear indication he wont sign an extension by the end of the year, he doesn`t wanna live in Atlanta, and i wouldnt trade 4 years of Delgado in exchange of 2-3 months of Dempster, move on and trade for somebody else who is willing to come and ask for less in returno (maybe JJ?)
What in the world would anybody give for Jurrjens?
Because some people find this site from the AJC site and think its a fantasy baseball site.
Interesting article on SI about the Oakland A’s. If we can’t keep Bourn in the offseason why not trade him to the A’s for pitching prospects now (or… and I know I’m a heretic for it…. trade McCann for a load).
Because this season isn’t over yet.
Between the hot mess he left in Boston and this debacle, Theo isn’t looking so hot (notwithstanding how overrated he is anyway; most of the 04 Sox were there before he was).
I say walk away from this situation now. It’s already a questionable exchange with Delgado for Demp, and it would be even worse if they bring him in and he acts like Kenny Lofton. If Grienke will cost too much, focus on under the radar mid rotation guys.
Thanks for the updates, keep them coming!
He has to be upset with Epstein, if it is Epstein that blew it, but, I hope he doesn’t blow the deal out of spite. Hopefully he is trying to calm down before choosing the best option. Time is running out.
Maybe throwing Chip C. In would sweeten the deal.
My question is… what is his fascination with the Dodgers? I mean they, very publicly, stated that Dempster was not worth what the Cubs were asking for and were shifting their focus to Garza. If that’s not a slap in the face, I don’t know what is?
I think he just wants to be in LA, is hoping he gets traded there and works out an extension.
It’s closer to his home, and he has several houses in Arizona, where the Dodgers have spring training.
Count me among those who would rather have five years of Delgado than two months of Dempster, particularly since Dempster’s refusal to approve this trade all but guarantees that we would only have him for two months.
Delgado has shown flashes of brilliance – there was the game in Miami where he had no-hit stuff, and he pitched his ass off in DC this past weekend, only to be let down by terrible infield defense. But we have nursed him through his growing pains, and now we’re going to give him away for a two-month rental of a veteran who doesn’t want to be in Atlanta in the first place? It’s the Texeira trade all over again.
If we get lucky, Theo and Dempster will save us from our own stupidity.
I can’t state this enough, but who else would you have the Braves trade to receive a valuable starting pitcher? J.J. doesn’t count and Teheran is un-tradeable. Who’s left?
I mean, I don’t like the idea of a rental either, but if we’re going to make a run at this, something has to be done to the rotation.
Starting to feel like George Pickett here.
Let’s not forget that Jed Hoyer is actually the Cubs GM. Theo is in charge, but Hoyer may have been the one that dropped the ball this time.
absolutely correct. I’ve been kind of lumping their whole front office in as “Theo”. Mostly because if this shit hits the fan, it’s Theo’s reputation that will take the hit. And also because it’s easier to write than Theo/Hoyer, haha.
I did the same thing yesterday and then read another article that broke down the actual responsibilities of both. I was thinking today that I would hope JS was advising Wren with all of this, then it hit me that I would rather have anyone other than JS advising Wren about a deadline (ish) deal. Other than Fred McGriff he was pretty much 0′fer.
Given the price for Dempster, and the regression that is likely to occur in his performance, I’ll make the following suggestions:
1) Shift focus away from a starter and trade for as quality a bullpen arm as you can. There should be plenty of guys that can be had for less than Delgado.
2) Move Medlen into the rotation.
You can probably only do this if you believe Venters is “back.” The hit the bullpen takes is less than the headaches from continuing to start Jair. Medlen may not be able to replicate Dempster’s innings, but the performance should be close enough in quality that it’s worth it.
Don’t forget Peter Moylan who pitched a scoreless inning at the A level on the 20th.
I loved Medlen when he was a starter…I wish they’d move him back in. He’d definietly be outperforming JJ right now.
Honestly, if the idea is just to get JJ out of the rotation and we don’t trade Delgado, we don’t even have to move Medlen back into the rotation. We could go with Hudson, Hanson, Sheets, Minor and Delgado, although you’d probably want Meds stretched out just in case.
More “rumor” floating around… Stark says that a source claims the status of the deal should be resolved “shortly.”
Linkage…
https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/227833249890721792
@Dan
I agree with your proposal of replacing JJ with Medlen and riding out Minor and Delgado for the rest of the season (and hoping that Sheets’s arm doesn’t fall off). The last two times out, Minor has given up one run and two runs, and lost both games because the offense sucked. Delgado gave up two runs in DC on Sarurday and lost because the offense sucked. Is 12 starts by Dempster really going to be a significant upgrade over either Minor or Delgado the rest of the way? No. As pointed out above, he would only be an upgrade over JJ, and anyone would be an upgrade over JJ. I’d rather replace JJ with Medlen, or even with Teheran, risky as that would be, than mortgage the future to get 12 starts out of Dempster now.
I’d go with a rotation of Hudson, Hanson, Minor, Delgado, and Sheets the rest of the way, and let the chips fall where they may. If Hanson or Delgado don’t produce, or if Sheets can’t stay healthy, plug Medlen into the rotation. But I’d rather have a young, affordable rotation of Beachy, Minor, Delgado, and Teheran in the years to come than play the rent-a-veteran game over and over again.
Agreed with this. Focus on the bench and bullpen first.
As terrible as JJ has been, and as inconsistent as Hanson, Minor, and Delgado have been, our real problem right now is our lack of right-handed hitting from anyone besides Prado and Chipper (on the days that Chipper plays). With Uggla mired in another disastrous slump, and Janish playing in place of Simmons, that’s two automatic outs in a row before the pitcher’s spot. Until Uggla starts hitting again and Simmons comes back from the DL, one third of our lineup is useless. And, on days that lefties pitch against us, the top half of our lineup takes a big hit.
If Uggla goes on another hot streak, and Simmons comes back in time (and healthy enough) to contribute, we’ve got a shot at the division. But that answer lies within what we’ve already got. Trading the farm for a rent-a-pitcher is not the answer.
Agreed, if you are going to trade Delgado, trade him for a RH controllable outfielder to play LF or CF next year and help the bench this year. (IE. can play LF when Prado is at 3rd)
Why aren’t the Rangers being considered as a possible destination for Dempster? Obviously they have the prospects to aim higher (Hamels, Greinke), but I would think their names would at least be in this conversation.
They already have their version of Dempster in Oswalt. They probably want a 1 or 1a to pair with Darvish when the playoffs hit. 4th/5th starters won’t see enough playoff action to warrant dealing much value to get them.
I would move on from Dempster already. He doesn’t seem too eager to join us, how do you think he’s gonna pitch when’s hes not that happy in the wrong clubhouse. I know he needs to pitch well for a new contract but baseball is a mental game.
I always thought a big reason the Bobby Cox teams only won 1 WS title was because they invested their capital in maintaining 5 quality starting pitchers. This was a great strategy to get to the playoffs, but fell apart when only 3 or 4 starting pitchers were needed and the dh rule was now in place. The Braves are a 1/2 game behind the dodgers for the last wild card spot. They need to shore up their pitching to even get to the playoffs, but without a better bench I don’t think they will get too far.
That’s the problem though. They DONT need to shore up their pitching, they just need to be willing to start both Minor and Delgado and be willing to use Medlen if anyone goes down.
They NEED to shore up the bench. Go find a RH bench bat that could start or platoon in LF next year and you fix problems this year and next.
I just can’t say that I agree with only the bench needing an upgrade. How is just a bench bat going to put us over the hump? We’ve been rolling along with this rotation and bench and look where we are. I’m sorry, but simply starting Delgado over J.J. is not enough.
The pitching staff is the biggest question among several others that are around.
We really need to replace Diaz AND Hinske (now hitting a pitiful .206/.283/.299) as bench/OF options. I’ve been wanting Ryan Kalish for a couple of years now. It would be great if the Braves could obtain him. The Red Sox have a plethora of outfield options now, since they’ve gotten healthy. Kalish can play CF or a corner OF position, and could be an option to start in the OF next year. He’d also be under team control for several years. As for the RH OF bat, I’d say go for Reed Johnson.
I’d rather follow the Bobby Cox formula, and be good for twenty years, with one World Series title, than follow the Phillies’ recent formula, and be great for five years, with one World Series title, and then completely implode and suck because we traded away the farm for “win now” players.
Losing the ’91 and ’96 World Series will bother me until the day I die, but that’s baseball. But I’d rather be good every year than mortgage the farm on “win now” trades. It was mentioned above that trading Delgado for two months of Dempster is like Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz in reverse. I understand that Delgado is almost certainly never going to be as great as Smoltz, but it’s still the same kind of sucker trade, and this time we’re the sucker, not the other team.
If we really need to go for it this year. We need to fix the bullpen and bench too. How about move Medlen to rotation (Hanson, Hudson, Sheets, Minor, Medlen). Move Delgado and Teheran to bullben long relief roles for this season only. (Kimbrel, Venters, OFlaherty, Martinez, Teheran, Delgado, Durbin?). Teheran and Delgado ready if needed to fill in and start if needed. Get Simmons back from injury (McCann, Freeman, Uggla, Simmons, Chipper, Prado, Bourn, Heyward). Trade Francisco and prospect to Arizona for Parra. They have surplus of outfielders. Reason they thought about trading Upton. They need 3B help. Call up Ernesto Mejia as back up first base and right handed bench bat. (Bench of Ross, Parra, Mejia, Janish, Hinske).
My sources are telling me that Dempster to Dodgers is a done deal. Nobody wants to be the first to break it after yesterday’s debacle.
At this point I hope he gets stuck in Chicago the rest of the year. I saw a Bowman tweet that other teams are calling Wren now that they see Delgato is available. Maybe an under the radar starter could be in play??
Delgado, typed too fast.
I still hope this trade doesn’t go through and the Braves just punts Jurrjens and bring Delgado back up.
Waaahhhh I want to be traded to the Dodgers, waaahhh. I don’t really care about the trade, I actually don’t think trading Delgado is worth a half year of ~4 ERA (per FIP expectations) of Dempster who will probably implode once he starts pitching in the heat of the NL East race. Delgado and someone else not named Teheran for Greinke and a shot at resigning him, that I can get on board with.
crap – re-signing
Now Dempster’s saying that he’s going to start for the Cubs tomorrow. Leaving aside all of the stats/baseball arguments, if a guy doesn’t want to be in Atlanta pitching for the Braves, I sure as hell don’t want him here. And, even if this trade did happen, you can guarantee that he won’t resign with us next year, because we don’t train in Arizona, and we’re not close enough to his home, and all of the reasons he doesn’t want to come here now.
Wren should be bidding two 3rd or 4th tier prospects for this clown now, no more than that. Hopefully the Dodgers back off as well and get a discount for his petulence and hopefully lowers Greinke’s value to a level the Braves can be comfortable parting with.